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Controversy Of Modern Arabian Breeding

61K views 114 replies 29 participants last post by  deserthorsewoman 
#1 ·
Most of you arabian horse lovers are probably aware of these things, but I am just wondering about the truth behind these claims.

#1 People are saying that arabians have breathing problems due to their head shapes. Of course most people know that the head shape of an arabian is bred to AID in breathing, although I suppose it could be possible that when bred to an extreme there could be issues. People also say things like they are too delicate, which is untrue (although their bones are smaller, they are also much more dense). But I have never seen or heard of a case where arabs have had issues due to their build, which makes me suspicious that these statements are just rumors starting by people who dislike the appearance and want to disguise their opinions as fact. I could be wrong.

#2 Then there is this thing people are saying about how "real" arabians do not look like this, that in the beginning they were much "healthier" and "normal" looking. I suppose I could agree (with not much research) that most of the older photos of the breed have not looked quite the same, but is that not always true for every breed? Every book I have read states that the arabian breed in particular is more similar to its ancestors than almost every other breed.

#3 "Arabian horses are abused in the show ring, especially the halter-bred arabs." This one I disagree with a great deal. Most of what these people talk about includes shaving, waxing, and greasing of the facial areas, and apparently plucking of the eyelashes which I have never heard of. Another thing that I have never seen is the eye tattooing. Equipment-wise, people have said the shanks, etc are abusive. I do not doubt that these things exist, and I would also say that the waxing, eyelash plucking, and tattooing sounds fairly abusive, although having never seen it firsthand I would not know. As for shanks, they can of course, like any other piece of equipment, be used wrongfully. However, not only is the abuse recognized by judges in the showring and punished by the AHA, but is rare. You can find abuse for EVERY breed.

Please do not reply to this thread if you do not have anything to say that is not based on experience or fact, or basically try to be mature and not hateful. If you want to share something you have heard or that someone told you go ahead, just like I said be mature not hateful. This is meant to be more of a scientific evidence conversation than a moral one, although morals obviously do have a place here.
 
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#2 ·
Uneducated and/or "breed-biased" people will always have something negative to say about something they don't like or don't know about and assume they won't like it.

I've honestly never heard of any of these claims. Heck, I used to jump a nice little Arab mare a bit more than a decade ago...stubborn as heck, but amazing jumper.
 
#3 ·
Horse breeds tend to change in appearance through the years due to different styles and what judges like. If the arabian breed has changed since the year 123BC, its because humans prefer a certain "look". Perfect example of this is the QH.

Never heard of an arab out there with a breathing problem.

Anything thats shown as the chance of being altered or abused for the show ring. I've heard of eyelining tattoos as well. We could get into all kinds of abusive methods, depending on what discipline we're talking about. These methods aren't solely "arabian" methods though and a lot of other breeds suffer from it.
 
#4 ·
Let's be honest...Americans are notorious for breeding to asthetic or performance goals that are not necessarily in the best interest of the animal, be it horses, dogs, chickens, or whatever. Over-specialization, whether for performance or aesthetics, is a poor breeding practice the majority of the time.

Are those things about Arabs true? I don't know - certainly not with the Arabs I have had...I'm just saying...
 
#5 ·
I've heard the one about them having breathing problems and with those that have severely dished faces, I could see why it is believable. I'm not a fan of Arabs and likely won't ever have one, especially not one with a goofy looking face. Don't mean to offend the Arab people that like the look, but not for me. To me, there is a big difference between breed trait and a deformity, and people like to toe that line, as Faceman pointed out.
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#6 ·
Yes, but it is only a deformity if it has adverse effects on the health at all times. We are talking head shape, not an extra limb xD. I have heard of one case where an arab had tooth problems because of the head shapes, but that is the only case that I know of. I have heard that there have been hoof problems with quarter horses due to flesh/hoof ratio (lots of muscle and fat, tiny hooves) although not working much with quarter horses I would not know if this is true or not.
 
#7 ·
I have heard that halter quarters sometimes have this issue because the fashionable thing is/was a muscled up monster with a baby doll face and those with dainty feet did have issues holding up all that weight. I would post a picture of what I consider deformed but I am pretty sure that horse belongs or is related to someones on here and I don't want to offend. Adelicate or sloping face is one thing but if their lips don't even come close to lining up, that can't be good.
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#8 ·
I did a quick search and found this guy:



Every breed has their different traits that people will try to breed the crap out of. Its not always for the best interest of the horse and its mostly for style. I heard that the "dish face" enables the horse to breathe better (read it somewhere in a book) for some reason I can't remember. But what about a severe dish face? Would it hinder the breathing at all?
 
#18 ·
I believe that this mare is actually like this because of an incident and it's not actually natural, I can't remember the specifics but it was supposed to be something along the lines of her leg wrapping around her nose in the womb as she was developing... I mean, don't quote me or anything, but this isn't a face you forget haha.
I'm going to post my honest opinion, so excuse me if it offends anyone...

Honestly, I'm not impressed at all by the current arabian trends. I think that, like faceman said, people have been breeding for "thuper pwetty" looks and nothing else. Sometimes I look at pictures of arabians at shows like Scottsdale and think, wow, did that really win? Do they consider that a great representation of the breed?
I wouldn't put too much stock into the rumor about their breathing being impaired, though- although there are a lot of arabians that are too extreme for my personal tastes, I don't see many of them that are so far gone that they would without doubt have physical ailments such as that... the way I see it, there's a point where no matter how much meddling people do while trying to shape an animal to their special ideals, nature will put her foot down. A horse that has a nose so deformed that they can't properly breathe will not make it long enough to procreate much, whether because there just aren't enough people who like that extreme of a look or because they just can't handle the stress of living (assuming that they do anything that requires them to breathe...)
I am, however, going to say that arabians now- I can't speak for them world wide, but at least in the US- are not what they were before, judging from pictures and looking at it from a purely logical perspective. This seems logical to me as now horses in general are not asked to do what they did a while ago, therefore there is more room for humans to meddle with their genetics and bring forth serious deformities. My favorite example is the quarter horse. More specifically, the halter quarter horse. I cringe when I see the horses that win in that discipline, honestly... if you sent one of those back to the days when a qh was ridden all day, it wouldn't last more than a minute.
DB, sometimes I wish the arabian breed had to go through what warmblood breeds do- a test to qualify them, ha ha. Heck, I'd like qh's to do that too... if the standards aren't met, the horse isn't worth breeding.
I wish arabians today looked more like this guy, haha:
 

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#9 ·
The QH "flesh/hoof ratio" is a pretty true style in halter classes. Luckily this isn't desired anymore. I heard of a halter bred QH who bulked out on his own, but his feet were so tiny that he became navicular by the age of 5.

This is just another example of "excessive breed trait"...when things go a bit overboard.



Thats gotta be close to draft weight on average horse hooves.
 
#12 ·
Ive seen quite a few nasty characteristics bred into all different kinds of horses, but pertaining to Arabs (and this being a personal preference) I just cannot seem to like anything about the squirrelly looking, stick legged, soup bowl faces of some of the halter Arabs. Although in saying that, some breeders tend to photograph them looking all frantic and wild, running around snorting and generally just looking flighty and crazy......which does not help the publics perception of a breed which is already considered crazy in many circles. JMO.

One day I'd like to see some photos of Arabs relaxing;)
 
#13 ·
I definitely agree. I am one of the few people who DO actually like that look (when they get excited) but it is certainly detrimental to their reputation. Most arabians I know do have that tendency to be more spirited (with plenty of exceptions of course), but when trained properly are the sweetest, calmest, most intelligent horses I have yet to know. One example is a purebred gelding I knew named Coko. He was formerly a big time national level show horse in hunt seat, and later became an all-around lesson horse who could be ridden and climbed all over by children. I remember when he was let out of his pasture he would automatically walk all the way across the property, into the barn, around the indoor arena, and into his stall calmly.

Even the most spirited arabians can be harnessed to be some of the best horses around if trained properly. I have a couple perfect examples myself :)

Personally, I prefer the extra spirit. Especially since it is often accompanied by loyalty, willingness, and intelligence. To me it is like having a little extra challenge with lots of extra reward. Not saying they are the only breed with these traits, just saying I have yet to meet an arabian without them. I definitely love quarter horses as well.

EDIT: Those two photos that were posted (the arab and the quarter horse) were certainly extremes. I would probably say that we definitely need to be careful with how far we go in these sorts of appearances but that, in general, we have not yet hit that limit.
 
#14 ·
I do not breed any horse because of its head. That is the problem with the arabs now getting the ribbons in the show ring.
IMO if an arabian cannot go 25 miles or more with little to no conditioning then it fails a major test of the breed standards. Versatility, good hard feet, strong legs and tendons and yes spirit all should be considered before the dished face.
I own some very nice horses yet they could not win a ribbon in a major arabian show in the halter class.
Just as none of the leading sires and broodmares in the AQHA or APHA of reining or cutting horses stand a chance in the halter class in their breed shows.
I was very biased toward Egyptian Arabians for years becuase of the current trend in the halter classes .
I now own three straight egyptian mares and all are pretty athletic with nice but not extreme heads. Shalom
 
#19 ·
I have seen plenty of advertising for super star Arabians in Europe and DID NOT RECOGNIZE them going into the mainring or coming out. Pics are photoshopped, horses hyped up to the max showing in hand. I can assure you all, they don't look like they look on fotos in every day life;-)
The grey in the pic......poor soul, that's not pretty, that's deformed. And I suppose somebody was even proud of it, judging by the pose and the frame.

Relaxed Arab....sorry, can't show a pic. Reason is, the pro fotographer couldn't take any pics, even after trying with plastic, mirrors, tape with stallions calling, mare in heat, the whole nine yards.....my 3 year old colt said it was siesta time and to he!! with the fotoshoot. Imagine, steel gray, hanging lower lip, ears on half mast, eyes almost closed......so, no pics of a relaxing Arab from me....:)
btw, as soon as fotowoman pulled out of the yard, he was all snort and blow........ Bas...rd......
 
#21 ·
Haha but they look ready to jump up and run! :lol:
 
#22 ·

this is Gharib(Anterior x Suhair), straight Egyptian stallion, pic shows him still in Egypt. He was brought to Germany to Marbach State Stud. Before breeding he had to pass a 100 day test. Dressage, jumping, cross country, willingness, character. Against warmbloods. That was the rule in Germany and most of Europe then. He sired several sons who in turn sired sons who beat the warmblood stallions at the licensing.
He was also licensed for Trakehner which is, to this day, one of the hardest things to achieve for a breeding stallion.
I had a granddaughter, and my relaxed stallion was her son. Here El Norus and Hadidi carry his blood.
So the ability is there, it's just not utilized anymore.
 
#63 ·
Thank you for posting this :)
Not all of us breed for "deformed" looking horses. I certainly do not! Speaking of El Norus, here he is- a Gharib grandson. There is nothing frail about this stallion:


Here is my first purebred colt that I produced- sired by El Norus, at a year old:


And my El Norus great-grand daughter, a weanling:



And here is my 16 hand+ PUREBRED Arabian mare that is currently in foal to El Norus:
 
#23 ·
Compared to the arabs I am used to yes the ones being bred for showing(specially halter) tend to make me cringe a little. There are still good looking ones but I am used to sturdy looking horses that don't look like they are twigs. The guy i used to ride was 14.3 maybe and a thick boy with hardly if any dish to his face however that horse was rock solid. Now not saying they look horrible but there are many I've seen taken too far with the "dainty pwetty horsey" look. If you go back they are supposed to have some substance to em. Atleast all the ones I've seen from the early lines were anyways.
 
#24 ·
I have a daughter of Bask Flame that most people do not think is an arab. She is stocky and her head is not dished. She is purebred and would probably do well in Park or country english pleasure. In fact my vet and farrier think she is a Al Marah breeds very nice usable horses and that is my goal.
When a stallion can be advertised as winning most classic head or liberty classes as their only achievements then the breed is headed in the wrong direction.
the arabian horse has been around for thousands of years and there will always be breeders interested in maintaining the hardy arabian horse for the future. Shalom
 
#27 ·
Tiny- yeah i think that's a bit extreme but like i said I'm used to very light amount of dish as the ones i was riding didnt have the bred to be pretty genes haha just bred to run/do endurance. I love seeing a horse with a dainty head and dish but some are just too far. I'm on my phone or I would post what I'm unsuccessfully saying haha.
 
#28 ·
Never mind.......
 
#30 ·
Sorry everyone I must have deleted a part of my post above.
It was supposed to state that my vet and farrier think my mare is a morgan.
Also that Al Marah breeds the type of arabian that is versatile.
sorry for the typo.
There are plenty of solid good looking arabians with nice short heads. Refined as well as athletic You just wont find them in the show ring in certain classes.
That is a shame. Shalom
 
#31 ·
I certainly do not mind the extreme look, but I definitely agree that health and performance should come first. It appears to me that the extreme breeding is shown more so in the US, though I could be wrong. If you as me, these people have the right idea. They don't seem to be trying to prevent a dished head, and it still turns up. These arabians clearly have a more athletic build while maintaining that classic arab look.

Some of my favorite foundation sires are Nazeer and his son Aswan.




I traced Nazeer's sire's line back and this is the oldest one with a photo that I could find, and he looks almost the same as some of today's arabians, plus has a beautiful strong body.


Now that I have looked at this, the breeding goals of some arabians seem to be going in a potentially adverse direction, however the classic style seems to be going strong.

As for photos of arabians relaxing, I have several of my baby boy <3


Though admittedly, he is normally more "ooh, a traffic cone/leadrope/ball, let's play with it!" than relaxed xD
 
#34 ·
The only thing I could think of the issues some people have for what they 'think' is arab halter showing is this. That and a lot of people dislike arabs, and try to find reasons for it. 'Its bred into them....ect' I found a video of why some people may think is abuse. I know very little of the arabian halter world, so I'm not going to really comment on the video itself.

This is where people get their stigma, I believe. They watch videos like this (edited to only show the worst) and think "all arabian shows must be like this, all the time".



Then there is what I think of when I think or arabian halter showing:



There is a lot of whip waving, and some correction to horses that get too excited or ignoring their handlers cues. But overall, I don't see abuse. Thats MHO.
 
#35 ·
The only thing I could think of the issues some people have for what they 'think' is arab halter showing is this. That and a lot of people dislike arabs, and try to find reasons for it. 'Its bred into them....ect' I found a video of why some people may think is abuse. I know very little of the arabian halter world, so I'm not going to really comment on the video itself.

This is where people get their stigma, I believe. They watch videos like this (edited to only show the worst) and think "all arabian shows must be like this, all the time".

Shankers - All Nations Cup, Aachen 2011 - YouTube

Then there is what I think of when I think or arabian halter showing:

2011 Class 71 Region 12 Arabian Geldings 2 & Over Open - YouTube

There is a lot of whip waving, and some correction to horses that get too excited or ignoring their handlers cues. But overall, I don't see abuse. Thats MHO.
Most of the big halter shows that I have seen are somewhere in between that. In the first one, I don't really understand the random jerks of the shank. I use a shank on my arab (Hero) but I only use it like that if he bites me, etc. Otherwise it just makes it easier for him to pinpoint my signals.

Most halter classes I have seen are more like this:

I have seen lots of halter classes but I have never shown in them and certain things sort of make me nervous. First of all, why are they so excited? I guess since it brings out their movement they are just brought up to get excited in the ring, but I think it would be much more ideal to show them relaxed. I also don't like the blatant disregard of ground manners, but maybe they are more behaved outside of the ring? The horses calm in the lineup, so perhaps they have some kind of signal for when it is okay to get riled up. Excessive shanking is definitely something that bugs me, and from my experience the owners who show their horses like that won't place very well. I have spent years perfecting Hero's ground manners and I wouldn't risk it by showing him like this. For the most part, I don't see this style of showing them off as abusive so much as a lot less than ideal. I would say that in hand they should be shown to be calm, and if having them get riled up and gallop around is really necessary then we should do so off the lead rope. By that I mean like people do in liberty; one horse at a time in a closed arena separate from the handler. That way shanking is not necessary and it would be just generally safer.
 
#37 ·
I would disagree. I do not think it is directed at the leading hand so much as the whip with the baggie on the end, which from what I hear is used to keep the horse's ears forward. Other than that I think the excitement comes from the yelling in the arena and the owner running beside the horse. I know some people who show halter and their horses look like this in the arena but are fine on ground and have good relationships with their owners. Also from watching them practice outside of the shows with the horses perfectly calm, I don't think it is the person they are focusing on. I think if the horses were truly terrified they wouldn't be focusing on their owner's signals instead of sprinting off into the wall. Of course, like I said, I would prefer a more calm and mannered environment.
 
#38 ·
I somewhat agree along those lines. I understand wanting to show the high refined neck and the floating trot and the flagging tail. Which typically requires a higher energy state. But the bad ground manners (I swear the grey stud was going to nail his handler in the first video I posted) seems to me bizarre, I would want to show off easy control, and a respectful horse.

The arabs that I know all come from my school's breeding farm. (Kellogg Arabians)

They look a lot different then arabians I've known before. Not as dished faces, wider set then I would have thought. They use them mostly to sell, and don't show much as far as I know. Seem to mostly train for saddleseat.

 
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