Enlighten us un-knowledgeable people!
   

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Enlighten us un-knowledgeable people!

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        12-12-2013, 03:38 AM
      #1
    Started
    Enlighten us un-knowledgeable people!

    So, I trawl through the breeding threads all the time, and I come across a lot of things that I have questions about, but never want to hijack the thread, so I don't ask the questions.
    Then I thought, surely I can't be the only one that doesn't know a lot, so why not make a thread to inform us not-so-knowledgeable people about the ins and outs of breeding, and have a place for people to freely ask questions without derailing the thread from the OP.
    Plus maybe it will be useful for anybody wanting to breed in the future. I might want to one day in the very distant future, when I know a whole lot more, have a horse worth breeding, and am financially stable.

    Firstly, what vaccinations do the mares/foals require, when, and what are they? I have seen the likes of needing Rhino at 5, 7 and 9 months, but what is rhino? Is it a disease only in certain countries, or does the vaccine exist in every country?

    What is Fescue, and how do you tell if it is in the hay?

    Can certain types of grass cause abortions?

    What is different about a broodmare feed, than say a feed designed for weight gain, or just a normal generalized feed?

    How many Ultrasounds would you recommend, at what stages?

    What is HYPP, HERD, do only certain breeds carry them?

    If you walked in on your mare in labour, would you automatically ring the vet, or wait till there were obvious signs of distress?

    Is it true that you can hear the foals heart beat using a stethoscope?

    Can vets test for pregnancy through blood tests?

    Why is it so important to not breed a grade horse? Can you not register any random horse in other countries? Because here in NZ you can register any horse you like, although breed registering is different to show registering, and you don't need a purebred horse to show register it here, so breeds don't make a difference in this country unless you are specifically competing it in a breed class.

    Is it more of a peace of mind thing or is it mandatory to have your vet out to check the mare, foal and placenta after the birth?

    Do you always keep milk replacer and bottles in your kit, or would you go out and get it if it come to that?

    Has anybody ever gone through or watched a mare have an emergency cesarean, or even a planned one? I have taken part in cows and a dog but never a horse.

    I have plenty more questions where that come from, I hope it's alright to put this here, I just figured it was better to put questions like these in a questions thread, rather than derail somebodies foaling thread, and that way anyone else can add questions that they want answered also.
    Thanks
         
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        12-12-2013, 05:13 AM
      #2
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by HollyBubbles    
    If you walked in on your mare in labour, would you automatically ring the vet, or wait till there were obvious signs of distress?

    Why is it so important to not breed a grade horse?

    Is it more of a peace of mind thing or is it mandatory to have your vet out to check the mare, foal and placenta after the birth?

    Do you always keep milk replacer and bottles in your kit, or would you go out and get it if it come to that?
    I can only answer a couple of these, and my answers might not be right. But at the same time, I'm subbing!

    - Personally, I would alert the vet and basically have them on call, ready to go at a moments notice. If the mare had had troubles in the past, I would call the vet when the mare started to show signs of getting close, even if it is days in advance. You want to be safe than sorry, and a good vet will probably appreciate the notice.

    - It's not really important to NOT breed a grade horse, but it's not recommended. Grade horses are quite often accidents, or a result of backyard breeders finding two pretty horses that they think will make a cute foal.

    - It's not mandatory in the least, but unless you know what you are looking for and are experienced in doing so, it is a good idea to get a vet out.

    - I would. Definitely better to be prepared. If your mare dies in the middle of the night, good luck finding a bottle and milk replacement (other than with your vet).
         
        12-12-2013, 09:29 AM
      #3
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by HollyBubbles    
    So, I trawl through the breeding threads all the time, and I come across a lot of things that I have questions about, but never want to hijack the thread, so I don't ask the questions.
    Then I thought, surely I can't be the only one that doesn't know a lot, so why not make a thread to inform us not-so-knowledgeable people about the ins and outs of breeding, and have a place for people to freely ask questions without derailing the thread from the OP.
    Plus maybe it will be useful for anybody wanting to breed in the future. I might want to one day in the very distant future, when I know a whole lot more, have a horse worth breeding, and am financially stable.

    Firstly, what vaccinations do the mares/foals require, when, and what are they? I have seen the likes of needing Rhino at 5, 7 and 9 months, but what is rhino? Is it a disease only in certain countries, or does the vaccine exist in every country? This part is best discussed with your vet and may vary by location, just like with any vaccine.

    What is Fescue, and how do you tell if it is in the hay? Fescue is a type of hay and it can be fine for pregnant mares if it is free of toxin that can grow on it. Its better to be safe than sorry and not feed any fescue to bred mares (causes long pregnancies, small foal and lack of milk)

    Can certain types of grass cause abortions?

    What is different about a broodmare feed, than say a feed designed for weight gain, or just a normal generalized feed?

    How many Ultrasounds would you recommend, at what stages? At least one at 14-16 days post breeding to check for twining.

    What is HYPP, HERD, do only certain breeds carry them? HYPP, HERDA are in stock horse breeds. Read more here - Horse HYPP Horse HERDA

    If you walked in on your mare in labour, would you automatically ring the vet, or wait till there were obvious signs of distress? I would only ring in an emergency or if there looked to be problems.

    Is it true that you can hear the foals heart beat using a stethoscope? As far as I am aware, no. There is essentially too much gut between the foal and the outside of the belly.

    Can vets test for pregnancy through blood tests? Yes. But you have to know the time frame to pick the test, just like with Wee Foal tests.

    Why is it so important to not breed a grade horse? Can you not register any random horse in other countries? Because here in NZ you can register any horse you like, although breed registering is different to show registering, and you don't need a purebred horse to show register it here, so breeds don't make a difference in this country unless you are specifically competing it in a breed class. Breeding grade horses is frowned upon due to not knowing a genetic history or predispositon for diseases such as HYPP and HERDA as well as you don't know if the horse is true to it's breeding (looks like what it's breeding says it should) or if it is fluke of nature that will not reproduce itself (as in won't create another spectacular example, but will make a frakenhorse).

    Is it more of a peace of mind thing or is it mandatory to have your vet out to check the mare, foal and placenta after the birth? It's a piece of mind thing, but it is recommended.

    Do you always keep milk replacer and bottles in your kit, or would you go out and get it if it come to that? I don't currently breed so no foaling kit.

    Has anybody ever gone through or watched a mare have an emergency cesarean, or even a planned one? I have taken part in cows and a dog but never a horse. I never have.

    I have plenty more questions where that come from, I hope it's alright to put this here, I just figured it was better to put questions like these in a questions thread, rather than derail somebodies foaling thread, and that way anyone else can add questions that they want answered also.
    Thanks
    My answers in bold.
         
        12-12-2013, 09:38 AM
      #4
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by HollyBubbles    
    So, I trawl through the breeding threads all the time, and I come across a lot of things that I have questions about, but never want to hijack the thread, so I don't ask the questions.
    Then I thought, surely I can't be the only one that doesn't know a lot, so why not make a thread to inform us not-so-knowledgeable people about the ins and outs of breeding, and have a place for people to freely ask questions without derailing the thread from the OP.
    Plus maybe it will be useful for anybody wanting to breed in the future. I might want to one day in the very distant future, when I know a whole lot more, have a horse worth breeding, and am financially stable.

    Firstly, what vaccinations do the mares/foals require, when, and what are they? I have seen the likes of needing Rhino at 5, 7 and 9 months, but what is rhino? Is it a disease only in certain countries, or does the vaccine exist in every country? Rhino is Rhinopneumonitis which is caused by the equine herpes virus and causes abortions in pregnant mares. Oklahoma State University Veterinary Teaching Hospital recommends the vaccine be given at 3, 5, 7 & 9 months. I don't know if the disease/vaccine exists in every country.

    What is Fescue, and how do you tell if it is in the hay? Fescue is a type of grass that frequently has an endophyte added to make it more cold resistant. It also causes "Fescue Toxicity" in pregnant mares which can cause many different problems during pregnancy and delivery. Here's a link to an article: Cornell University Department of Animal Science I don't know if other countries besides America have fescue and its problems.

    Can certain types of grass cause abortions? Yes, see your previous question about fescue.

    What is different about a broodmare feed, than say a feed designed for weight gain, or just a normal generalized feed? Broodmare feeds, especially if milled for a specific area, are designed to support the extra nutrition needs of a lactating mare and can be designed to make up for certain lacks in the local environment. For instance, in OK we supplement selenium & Vitamin E because our soil can run from selenium poor to totally lacking. Most weight gain feeds are concentrating on just gaining weight, though they can be a well balanced feed, as can a general feed.

    How many Ultrasounds would you recommend, at what stages? Most preprenatal ultrasounds are done at 14-21 days to check for a pregnancy, then at 45 & 60 days to confirm the mare is in foal and carrying. More can be done if specific conditions warrant it.

    What is HYPP, HERD, do only certain breeds carry them? HYPP and HERDA are genetic diseases. Rather than write a book, I'm just going to give you some links. Horse HYPP Horse HERDA

    If you walked in on your mare in labour, would you automatically ring the vet, or wait till there were obvious signs of distress? I'd wait to see if she looked to be having problems, unless the mare in question was known for having difficult deliveries.

    Is it true that you can hear the foals heart beat using a stethoscope? I have never heard the foal's heartbeat through a stethoscope, at least not while it was still in utero.

    Can vets test for pregnancy through blood tests? Yes, but they haven't been as reliable as palpation and ultrasound and frequently can't be done for around 120 days. I've heard there are newer ones that can test earlier but have never bothered with them.

    Why is it so important to not breed a grade horse? Can you not register any random horse in other countries? Because here in NZ you can register any horse you like, although breed registering is different to show registering, and you don't need a purebred horse to show register it here, so breeds don't make a difference in this country unless you are specifically competing it in a breed class. We have a HUGE number of unwanted horses in this country and most of them are grade or unregistered horses. There's no such thing as a "show registry" in this country that I'm aware of.

    Is it more of a peace of mind thing or is it mandatory to have your vet out to check the mare, foal and placenta after the birth? I don't have the vet out, I haul the mare and foal in for a "well baby" check sometime after 12 hours post delivery. I have the vet check the foals IgG levels to ensure he/she got a good transfer of immunity from the mare's colostrum, any deformities or conditions that need to be cared for right after birth. I check the placenta myself as soon as it's dropped, so don't have the vet check that. I would have him check the mare if I suspected any part of it was retained.

    Do you always keep milk replacer and bottles in your kit, or would you go out and get it if it come to that? I keep frozen colostrum on hand from previous foalings, so if the mother doesn't have adequate milk or if the baby has trouble standing to nurse, I can bottle feed it. I don't keep replacer on hand, if I need it, I'll go buy it fresh. I do have bottles "in stock".

    Has anybody ever gone through or watched a mare have an emergency cesarean, or even a planned one? I have taken part in cows and a dog but never a horse. No. Frequently if it comes down to a C section for a mare, you're going to lose the mare and the foal.

    I have plenty more questions where that come from, I hope it's alright to put this here, I just figured it was better to put questions like these in a questions thread, rather than derail somebodies foaling thread, and that way anyone else can add questions that they want answered also.
    Thanks
    I put the answers right after the questions. Also check out the book, "Blessed Are the Broodmares".
    Southern Grace likes this.
         
        12-16-2013, 10:30 PM
      #5
    Started
    Awesome thanks guys I know I've got more questions but at the moment I'm failing to remember what they were
    DeliciousD and KigerQueen like this.
         
        12-17-2013, 05:41 AM
      #6
    Weanling
    Firstly, what vaccinations do the mares/foals require, when, and what are they? I have seen the likes of needing Rhino at 5, 7 and 9 months, but what is rhino? Is it a disease only in certain countries, or does the vaccine exist in every country?

    Well, I am in the UK. We vaccinate against EHV at 5,7 and 9 months and flu and tetanus at 10 months

    What is Fescue, and how do you tell if it is in the hay?

    Fescue is a type of grass, a lot of it is infected with a endophyte fungus that can cause fescue toxicosis. Its normally fine in early stage and non pregnant mares, but in late stage pregnancy it can cause dystocia (mal positioning of the fetus), thicken placenta and extra long gestation periods. We have very few cases here in the UK.

    Can certain types of grass cause abortions?

    As above yes, fescue toxicosis can cause abortions if it affects the placenta leading to infection or mal-absorbency of nutrients for the foal. Longer gestation periods >370 can cause issues with the foal becoming too big to be passed through the mares reproductive tract

    What is different about a broodmare feed, than say a feed designed for weight gain, or just a normal generalized feed?

    Broodmare feed is specialised to ensure there are enough vitamins and minerals for each stage of pregnancy. For example, at 150 day onwards cooper and zinc absorption is crucial. However many mares do not need supplementing untill the last trimester where the foal puts on 1kg of weight every 10 days and to meet the energy needs for milk production.

    How many Ultrasounds would you recommend, at what stages?

    We were recommended scans at 16, 30 and 60 days. We ended up scans at 16, 21, 30 and 60 days as we thought we saw a twin on day 16 but there was no sign on day 21. We also just had her palpated at month 7 to ensure foal is still there so I don't overfeed an empty mare.

    What is HYPP, HERD, do only certain breeds carry them?

    As far as I am aware Quarter horses and paints carry these, along with PSSM and OLW. I do not know much about these issues but a simple internet search will help. Arabs also have CA which is quite an interesting condition.

    If you walked in on your mare in labour, would you automatically ring the vet, or wait till there were obvious signs of distress?

    I would ring the vet and have them on standby because if something is going to go wrong, its going to happen quickly and you will need to intervene to save both mare and foal.

    Is it true that you can hear the foals heart beat using a stethoscope?

    No, unlike humans there is too much gut movement to be able to hear the foals heartbeat.

    Can vets test for pregnancy through blood tests?

    Yes, previously it was only accurate after 120 days but there is a new test out to test from 30 days. However you need to be having an ultrasound scan to check for twins.


    Is it more of a peace of mind thing or is it mandatory to have your vet out to check the mare, foal and placenta after the birth?

    Its highly recommended to check for IGg levels to ensure the foal has a good immune system as a weak foal is susceptible to infection and joint ill. Its also vital to check to placenta to ensure there are no tears and the mare hasnt retained some as this can lead to infection, toxic shock, laminitus etc

    Do you always keep milk replacer and bottles in your kit, or would you go out and get it if it come to that?

    Yes because at 3am you don't want to be needing something you don't have. I would rather have an overstocked foaling kit and not need it then need it and not have it. Large breeding farms will have frozen colostrum on site if the foal isnt up or adequately suckling. The foal can only absorb colostrum in the first 48 hours. Plasma transfusion may be needed if the foals immune system is not high enough.

    Has anybody ever gone through or watched a mare have an emergency cesarean, or even a planned one? I have taken part in cows and a dog but never a horse.

    I have been fortunate and see a dvd of a c-section in a mare who fractured her pelvis racing and so would have been unable to pass the foal correctly. It is not the norm and the only other c-section I witnessed turned into a feotoctomy at the ast minute as the foal was unfortunately dead.
         
        12-19-2013, 10:10 AM
      #7
    Started
    I assisted at an emergency C-section if you can call it that on a horse. The mare was in the middle of being treated for colic, the went down and died, we cut her open to try to save foal, who was about a week away from foal date. Foal lived for a day, but also died.
    Horses are such fragile animals, they don't do well with things like this if healthy, much less emergency. Cows, dogs, cats and most animals handle C-sections just fine, horses: not so much
    HollyBubbles and dbarabians like this.
         
        12-19-2013, 03:01 PM
      #8
    Started
    Thanks WG, I've watched one on TV, but it was a planned one because they knowingly bred a mare who had previously fractured her pelvis and therefore couldn't give birth to the foal... Why on earth would you risk breeding a mare who had previously fractured her pelvis therefore had to rely on C-section?? Colour me confused, I know it was apparenty a successful ex-racing mare, but why would you risk something like that, and the foal was massive! Although it was very interesting to see how they did it start to finish, it was at the local university here.

    Oh dear, we've done that with a cow who fell down a bank elsewhere and tore all the tendons in one rear leg and completely degloved it... Calf survived, her name was Lucky.
    Is it likely to be the stress of the surgery, or complications of the procedure or just the horse being fragile that causes them to not handle it so well? The only operations I've ever seen on a horse has been gelding.
         
        12-19-2013, 03:06 PM
      #9
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by HollyBubbles    
    Is it likely to be the stress of the surgery, or complications of the procedure or just the horse being fragile that causes them to not handle it so well? The only operations I've ever seen on a horse has been gelding.
    I'm not a vet so this is kind of just a guess but I'm going to say it's because they tend to do poorly with any kind of huge changes in their lives. Change feed too quickly, colic, founder, die. Break a leg, laminitis in the good leg, founder, die. I think it's because things cause them to founder so easily and they are so reliant on being able to remain on their feet. So I guess it would come under fragility?
         
        12-19-2013, 05:50 PM
      #10
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by HollyBubbles    
    If you walked in on your mare in labour, would you automatically ring the vet, or wait till there were obvious signs of distress?
    Delivery happens very quickly. Once it starts, you only have 30-45 minutes for the foal to be born, and unless you're camped out there and awake, you'll probably miss the birth. If the problem isn't something simple that you can help with, you're going to lose the foal before a vet could even get there and the vet's work becomes trying to save the mare.
         

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