Equine Color Genetics & breeding special colors - Page 3 - The Horse Forum

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post #21 of 56 Old 07-19-2010, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by LilacsGirl View Post
OOOH - now that's what I'm talkin' bout! What byootiful babies! I shouldn't say I don't like bays - because I like buckskins, etc - the whole points thing - it's just that I don't like that Agouti (A) is dominant over black (EE) and can turn a homozygous black horse into a bay. The only way to breed blacks, is to eliminate Agouti altogether. Or to find a dominant black that comes from a locus OTHER than E. Like, maybe a variant of B/b or K (as in dogs). Am I losing you here?
yeah but im all for variety too, there is an abundance of bays (especially here-uk) but if agouti is bred out there will be an abundance of black, I spose it is taste. I do love black horse though :P

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post #22 of 56 Old 07-19-2010, 05:46 AM Thread Starter
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Smile Agouti control

Quote:
Originally Posted by speedy da fish View Post
yeah but im all for variety too, there is an abundance of bays (especially here-uk) but if agouti is bred out there will be an abundance of black, I spose it is taste. I do love black horse though :P
Hiya Speedy, Agouti would never be bred out because it is so prevalent in chestnuts. As soon as you breed an Agouti chestnut to a black - BANG there's that bay again! The most you could hope for is one or two isolated lines (or studs) where the Agouti gene is carefully controlled by selection. Then you would have a chance to breed some nice blacks (and livers). But I definitely agree with you - variety is the spice of life!!

What? A great horse can ABSOLUTELY ... also be a wonderful color!
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post #23 of 56 Old 07-19-2010, 05:56 PM
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Very interesting LilacsGirl!

I do apologize though - that was not a photo of my mare. I was just showing her as an example of a sooty buckskin.

But if you want, maybe you can have fun with my girls. My Arab mare seems very straight forward - she's just a chestnut, right? But from her tail being black and her broad dorsel type stripe, she seems to have sooty. From her big splashy blaze, I've had people tell me she's sabino. From her white ticking and slightly white tail base, I've been told she has rabicano. Feel free to decipher! She's just a chestnut to me, but it's interesting. I can also post a pic of her VERY plain bay dam (star and small white coronet band) and her sire was black, I know zero more then that (every possibility he could have carried rabicano or sabino, I never saw a pic of him either).

My mare's dam:


My mare:

Shows her tail turning black halfway down


Closeup of her blaze (yes, it smudges like paint over her right eye)


Picture in summer

I can't seem to find anything that shows her white ticking or white tail tuft - that's how unnoticable it is. I could definitely take pics - she just has this white hairs scattered all over her body, mostly concentrated to the back half of her body (stomach, hindquarters).

I also have this tovero filly who makes me shake my head - she's obviously black (both parents were black), I would think, and yet her flank spots fade to this murky light brown color while her head ALWAYS stays black, it never fades.

The pain of it? On camera, her flank patches always come out black as black or close to black. I can't get a camera to show how swampy brown they are. Any idea what would cause that?

Doesn't show well, but you can see how her head is PITCH black and yet her flanks are a "dark bay" color - in reality, they were crazy faded in this photo:



AHA!!!! This picture KIND of shows it:


You can see her head is totally black and her flank patch is faded - and this is only spring. It changes color constantly and seems to have nothing to do with the actual sun. Although this summer it's looking extra faded.

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post #24 of 56 Old 07-26-2010, 05:47 PM
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Color genetics is always neat. I'm not sure what gene he has, but my aunt owns a stallion, who is a registered palomino, Tobiano Paint. He has had numerous foals as people like to breed to him because of his color & looks (his pedigree isn't bad but it's based mainly on showing lines, not alot of competition). He doesn't always throw a paint (i was sorely dissipointed when my own filly by him came out solid ) but it is never a problem to determine what color the baby will be. He has yet to fail in diluting a mare's color.
For ex: when he's bred to a chestnut (liverchestnut, NOT sorrel color) you get a palomino. When he's bred to a brown horse (or black bay) you get either a dun or buckskin. When bred to a bay, you will have a buckskin foal. When he's bred to a black mare you get either a brown or a grulla & when he's bred to another palomino he throws either palomino or cremello.
Pretty neat hey! And as I said it has NEVER failed in the 15 years he's been a stud. The only color that doesn't change is sorrel-chestnut. So I knew that when I bred him to my mare (brown) that I was going to get a buckskin & sure enough, 11 months later there she was!
I'm not sure how he'd do if bred to a mare with a homozygous (think I spelt that wrong) color, but it would be interesting to see. My aunt owns a mare who's homozygous for the red dun gene but she has yet to try the two together.

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post #25 of 56 Old 07-26-2010, 07:26 PM
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Here's my unusual horse...







Two blue eyes, a star, a huge snip, and a partial pastern. Her snip is very jagged and uneven around her muzzle. She has no white anywhere else. She tested negative for sabino.


Her dam has a stripe/thin blaze and no leg white:



Her sire is black without a single white hair:





You can see photos of her ancestors here: Clouds Mystique W Missouri Fox Trotter (hover over "Reports" and click on "Photos")

I don't see any obvious frames or splashes in there - do you? I see a few sabinos, though. (BTW - somebody screwed up and there are a few horses that don't belong there... ignore Balladier, Noor, Krack C, and Goodtimes. The rest are correct.)

Mystique has a full-brother with the EXACT same markings as her, except his star and snip are more connected than hers. He even has the same partial pastern on the same leg. I wish I had a picture of him.

This is her other full sibling: Princess Aida W., foxtrotter for sale in Florida

None of her 100+ half-siblings have blue eyes that I know of (and I've done extensive research on the subject).










I also have a palomino who I think might be champagne. He has light eyes and is completely covered in freckles except for his muzzle and around his eyes. Even there, the skin looks greyish instead of black. I've seen some proven champagnes who have so many freckles around their muzzle and eyes that they look black.

His sire is bay and his dam has a palomino base coat, although she grayed out so it's possible nobody noticed she was champagne until it was too late.



This is what the rest of his body looks like (when wet):


I'm going to go ahead and test him for champagne when I have some extra cash laying around : ]
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post #26 of 56 Old 07-27-2010, 03:29 PM
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I would say nope, not champagne. Freckling is very common with palominos.
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post #27 of 56 Old 08-03-2010, 05:45 PM Thread Starter
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Hi MIkola

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacabreMikolaj View Post
Very interesting LilacsGirl!

I do apologize though - that was not a photo of my mare. I was just showing her as an example of a sooty buckskin.

But if you want, maybe you can have fun with my girls. My Arab mare seems very straight forward - she's just a chestnut, right? But from her tail being black and her broad dorsel type stripe, she seems to have sooty. From her big splashy blaze, I've had people tell me she's sabino. From her white ticking and slightly white tail base, I've been told she has rabicano. Feel free to decipher! She's just a chestnut to me, but it's interesting. I can also post a pic of her VERY plain bay dam (star and small white coronet band) and her sire was black, I know zero more then that (every possibility he could have carried rabicano or sabino, I never saw a pic of him either).

My mare's dam:


My mare:

Shows her tail turning black halfway down


Closeup of her blaze (yes, it smudges like paint over her right eye)


Picture in summer

I can't seem to find anything that shows her white ticking or white tail tuft - that's how unnoticable it is. I could definitely take pics - she just has this white hairs scattered all over her body, mostly concentrated to the back half of her body (stomach, hindquarters).

I also have this tovero filly who makes me shake my head - she's obviously black (both parents were black), I would think, and yet her flank spots fade to this murky light brown color while her head ALWAYS stays black, it never fades.

The pain of it? On camera, her flank patches always come out black as black or close to black. I can't get a camera to show how swampy brown they are. Any idea what would cause that?

Doesn't show well, but you can see how her head is PITCH black and yet her flanks are a "dark bay" color - in reality, they were crazy faded in this photo:



AHA!!!! This picture KIND of shows it:


You can see her head is totally black and her flank patch is faded - and this is only spring. It changes color constantly and seems to have nothing to do with the actual sun. Although this summer it's looking extra faded.
The interesting thing about all chestnuts with black tails is that a chestnut, technically - should not be able to display black hair AT ALL. It's bull to attribute this to the 'sooty' gene, because sooty doesn't just attack manes and tails, and leave the rest of the horse red! Obviously your mare has SOME kind of black gene ... or she couldn't display black, since chestnut is completely recessive. So where does that black tail come from, I wonder. Don't you think that's interesting?

If the tovero is black - and I agree the head is an excellent indicator - the appearance of bay is most likely due to sun bleaching. I had a black horse who looked bay in the summer, and his tail even reddened in the late summer from bleaching out. But the head is a good indicator of black. My guy's head never bleached out either. This is called fading black, and at the moment, I think it's probably caused by the normal E gene, crossed with a normal chestnut gene (even from two black parents, unless they are homozygous -you spelled it right! - each parent probably carried a chestnut gene). However, when you cross that E black with Liver, or black chestnut, I believe THAT is what causes NON-fading black - where there is very little or no sun bleaching. I think it's USUAL for black horses to fade to brown or bay in the summer. Definitely doesn't mean he's not black.

You have pretty horses!
Lilacs

What? A great horse can ABSOLUTELY ... also be a wonderful color!
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post #28 of 56 Old 08-03-2010, 05:59 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilruffian View Post
Color genetics is always neat. I'm not sure what gene he has, but my aunt owns a stallion, who is a registered palomino, Tobiano Paint. He has had numerous foals as people like to breed to him because of his color & looks (his pedigree isn't bad but it's based mainly on showing lines, not alot of competition). He doesn't always throw a paint (i was sorely dissipointed when my own filly by him came out solid ) but it is never a problem to determine what color the baby will be. He has yet to fail in diluting a mare's color.
For ex: when he's bred to a chestnut (liverchestnut, NOT sorrel color) you get a palomino. When he's bred to a brown horse (or black bay) you get either a dun or buckskin. When bred to a bay, you will have a buckskin foal. When he's bred to a black mare you get either a brown or a grulla & when he's bred to another palomino he throws either palomino or cremello.
Pretty neat hey! And as I said it has NEVER failed in the 15 years he's been a stud. The only color that doesn't change is sorrel-chestnut. So I knew that when I bred him to my mare (brown) that I was going to get a buckskin & sure enough, 11 months later there she was!
I'm not sure how he'd do if bred to a mare with a homozygous (think I spelt that wrong) color, but it would be interesting to see. My aunt owns a mare who's homozygous for the red dun gene but she has yet to try the two together.
It's difficult to arrive at solid conclusions as to what will result with color crosses. In order to say what a stallion is likely to produce with a particular color, it would be ideal to have bred him to at least 5 mares of this color - and even then, they would have to be of the same Agouti combination - depending whether the mare is Aa (single Agouti); AA (homozygous Agouti) or aaee - which MIGHT be liver or not, depending on other unknown gene sequences; etc. To say "when he is bred to a chestnut, you get X" is not scientific enough to deliver a accurate predictions. While your observations are certainly interesting, they would probably not be conclusive, unless the mares were in a genetically controlled group.

It is Very interesting about the gray skin, and the freckles, and I would not write off some kind of Champagne remnant . INTERESTINGLY, I also have a palomino colt with gray skin and a mad shine - don't know if he has freckles - but he is DEFINITELY carrying some kind of sheen gene! Maybe single dilute Pearl - we don't know a lot about this one yet, except that it shows up on Balitor (google him as "Balitor Pearl gene"). It sounds likely you may have something special there! Does he have any Morgan horse in his distant pedigree? I'm VERY glad to learn about the gray skinned palomino - you are not alone!!

What? A great horse can ABSOLUTELY ... also be a wonderful color!
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post #29 of 56 Old 08-03-2010, 06:04 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CloudsMystique View Post
Here's my unusual horse...







Two blue eyes, a star, a huge snip, and a partial pastern. Her snip is very jagged and uneven around her muzzle. She has no white anywhere else. She tested negative for sabino.


Her dam has a stripe/thin blaze and no leg white:



Her sire is black without a single white hair:





You can see photos of her ancestors here: Clouds Mystique W Missouri Fox Trotter (hover over "Reports" and click on "Photos")

I don't see any obvious frames or splashes in there - do you? I see a few sabinos, though. (BTW - somebody screwed up and there are a few horses that don't belong there... ignore Balladier, Noor, Krack C, and Goodtimes. The rest are correct.)

Mystique has a full-brother with the EXACT same markings as her, except his star and snip are more connected than hers. He even has the same partial pastern on the same leg. I wish I had a picture of him.

This is her other full sibling: Princess Aida W., foxtrotter for sale in Florida

None of her 100+ half-siblings have blue eyes that I know of (and I've done extensive research on the subject).










I also have a palomino who I think might be champagne. He has light eyes and is completely covered in freckles except for his muzzle and around his eyes. Even there, the skin looks greyish instead of black. I've seen some proven champagnes who have so many freckles around their muzzle and eyes that they look black.

His sire is bay and his dam has a palomino base coat, although she grayed out so it's possible nobody noticed she was champagne until it was too late.



This is what the rest of his body looks like (when wet):


I'm going to go ahead and test him for champagne when I have some extra cash laying around : ]
Sorry - I actually sent your gray skinned palomino reply to the wrong person. I am very interested about your palomino - and would definitely NOT write off some kind of champagne remnant, or other "sheen gene' - I also have a gray skinned palomino colt with a mad shine to him ... very unusual; looks impossible when you look at him. He outshines my champagne mare any day of the week! I'm exhausted now (long day) but would like to talk to you some more about this.

Your black horse is INCREDIBLE! How exciting!
ThANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SENDING THESE PIX

What? A great horse can ABSOLUTELY ... also be a wonderful color!
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post #30 of 56 Old 08-03-2010, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilruffian View Post
Color genetics is always neat. I'm not sure what gene he has, but my aunt owns a stallion, who is a registered palomino, Tobiano Paint. He has had numerous foals as people like to breed to him because of his color & looks (his pedigree isn't bad but it's based mainly on showing lines, not alot of competition). He doesn't always throw a paint (i was sorely dissipointed when my own filly by him came out solid ) but it is never a problem to determine what color the baby will be. He has yet to fail in diluting a mare's color.
For ex: when he's bred to a chestnut (liverchestnut, NOT sorrel color) you get a palomino. When he's bred to a brown horse (or black bay) you get either a dun or buckskin. When bred to a bay, you will have a buckskin foal. When he's bred to a black mare you get either a brown or a grulla & when he's bred to another palomino he throws either palomino or cremello.
Pretty neat hey! And as I said it has NEVER failed in the 15 years he's been a stud. The only color that doesn't change is sorrel-chestnut. So I knew that when I bred him to my mare (brown) that I was going to get a buckskin & sure enough, 11 months later there she was!
I'm not sure how he'd do if bred to a mare with a homozygous (think I spelt that wrong) color, but it would be interesting to see. My aunt owns a mare who's homozygous for the red dun gene but she has yet to try the two together.
It's just sheer luck that he's always passed on his dilute gene. A palomino is just a chestnut horse with one copy of the creme gene, so he has a 50/50 shot at passing on creme to his foals. He also doesn't carry the dun gene, so it would be impossible for him to produce a grulla when bred to a black mare or a dun when bred to a brown or bay mare (buckskin is caused by creme, dun is not). The mare would have to be carrying dun in order for either of those colours to be possible.
His genetics would be ee ?? Dd CcrC, meaning he is red based, possibly carrying agouti, not carrying dun, & heterozygous for creme.
Your aunt's red dun mare's genetics are ee ?? DD CC, meaning she's red based, possibly carrying agouti, homozygous for dun, & not carrying creme. Any foal from that cross will be a red based dun, possibly a dunskin if the stallion passes on creme.
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black chestnut , black palomino , equine color genetics , pearl gene , silver gene

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