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Line-breeding and in-breeding thoughts & reasons

This is a discussion on Line-breeding and in-breeding thoughts & reasons within the Horse Breeding forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category

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        09-24-2013, 02:00 AM
      #151
    Trained
    The taboo about closely related humans reproducing with each other is very strong and has colored our thinking about animal husbandry.
    Then we have HERDA and HYPP along with SCIDS to be concerned about. Rightfully so.
    I use inbreeding to set uniformity in my herd with great success may I add.
    I took Rushing Sam and bought Cassius to use as outcrosses on any fillies I keep of Stars.
    Though they are still distantly related enough to highlight the good traits all 3 stallions have. Shalom
         
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        09-24-2013, 12:10 PM
      #152
    Green Broke
    A very interesting article on the particular inbreeding practice of Arabians and their resulting consistent type:

    http://www.desertarabian.org/PDFs/re...ing_Quotes.pdf

    Selected Excerpts Discussing Inbreeding and Linebreeding in Arabian
    Horses
    The fact that pure breeding over long periods was impossible without inbreeding has its
    Explanation in the fanatic insistence of the Bedouin on the purity of the blood…In spite
    Of their utmost refinement Arabian horses are at the same time notorious for their
    Persistent disposition, which is mainly due to the following reasons: Inbreeding and
    Selection have not only removed bad characteristics from the heredity…but have almost
    Led to inbreeding resistance. Without inbreeding the pure bred Arabian would not have
    Become what it is today. Most of the outstanding breeding qualities of this race are the
    Consequence of inbreeding. Because of the special conditions under which the horses
    Were raised, inbreeding did not only do no harm, but also led to a homozygosity of
    Characteristics and a consolidation of the breed which is unknown to any other
    Thoroughbred race…so that the Arabian reproduces his characteristics, I.e. His virtues
    More faithfully and effectively than any other race.

    H. Seydel, quoted in Asil Arabians VI, Olms
    Verlag, Hildesheim, 2007

    Breeding Arabians is not so different genetically speaking from raising other breeds of
    Horses, or for that matter, pure-bred cattle or dogs. Every breed has certain strains with
    Predominant qualities and characteristics, which breeders seek to unite in a single
    Individual. Whenever a perfect (distinctive) specimen was created, incest-breeding was
    Adapted to fix the type. The man of the desert arrived at the same means for establishing
    Distinctive types within certain strains as the civilized man in the creation of modern
    Breeds.
    C.R. Raswan, The Raswan Index. William
    Byrd Press, Richmond, Virginia, 1969

    INBREEDING IS NECESSARY:
    The word inbreeding embraces the mating of father to daughter, brother to sister and son
    To mother – only three relationships. However, inbreeding is also referred by breeders
    As the mating of animals more closely related than the average of the breed. If like begets
    Like, which is the beginning theory of breeding, it is truest where the relationship is
    Closest.
    Many people can tell quickly by glancing at a horse…who bred it or whose type it is,
    Because certain breeders have developed a specific type which is easily recognizable.
    Usually this has been accomplished through some form of inbreeding.

    LINEBREEDING:
    The word linebreeding does not encompass nearly the broad coverage for which it is
    Commonly used. It is breeding within the family so that the relationship of the dam and
    Sire is not more distant than second cousins, or great great grandparents. Linebreeding is
    Also referred to as a form of inbreeding in which the blood of particular individuals is
    Concentrated in the herd without an attempt to rapidly inbreed.
    The basic rule of all geneticists, scientists and successful animal breeders is that the best
    Breeding results are obtained by breeding close relatives to each other.
    Judith Forbis. Authentic Arabian
    Bloodstock. Ansata Publications, Mena,
    Arkansas. 1990
    Let us summarize. Inbreeding leads to the more frequent recurrence of parental allele
    Combinations in children. Line breeding results in the reduction of the number of alleles
    (per gene locus) in a breeding group, which increases the frequency of the remaining
    Alleles and thus the recurrence of allele combinations of parents in their children. All this
    Leads to a higher genetically determined similarity between the generations. Now it is
    Clear that a top animal is a top animal because it is rare. Why does a breeder spend one
    Million dollars for a particular stallion? Because he knows the animal has something the
    Others lack. Top animals always have rare alleles, especial on the highest level of the
    Genom hierarchy. That’s why these breeding methods are so very important.
    It’s not merely a question of displacing average values, as the quantitative geneticists
    Imply. We breed individual animals, not average values. Hence, the point is to
    Reproduce the hereditary make-up of top animals in their offspring, and this is only
    Possible by inbreeding and line breeding – that’s the consequence. Now you understand
    Why the most magnificent horse of all time – the Arabian – reveals so much inbreeding in
    Its pedigrees.
    F. Bakels. The Asil Arabian in the Light of
    The New Genetic Knowledge. Olms Verlag,
    Hildesheim, 1980

    I believe by virtue of centuries of Bedouin breeding, due to their stringent requirements, Arabians have evolved in a unique way no other breed has, therefore making the breed highly prepotent. In the case of Arabians, inbreeding and linebreeding were not only highly successful, but demonstrably consistent in their results.
    Is this to say everyone should go out and linebreed/inbreed? Of course not. But we can learn how a culture- so different than ours- created a breed standard that no other culture has. And they did this by inbreeding. The existence of the breed itself speaks to the method's undisputed success.
    dbarabians and QtrBel like this.
         
        09-24-2013, 12:46 PM
      #153
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dbarabians    
    Qrtrbel my people are more inbred than those barefoot hillbillies we make fun of. Shalom
    And there in lies the difference between discriminate and indiscriminate... that was supposed to be the wink wink smilie but it didn't happen.
    I just realized there was much more to this thread than what I replied to. Going back to read
    dbarabians likes this.
         
        09-29-2013, 05:45 AM
      #154
    Foal
    line v's in

    The only difference is line doesn't have the deformities ...ie you got lucky
    Like a in bred litter of pups there will be some that are ok and some with undershot jaws ,screwed up hips heart defects
    Inbreeding is wrong even if you call it line breeding
         
        10-01-2013, 07:00 AM
      #155
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by southislander    
    the only difference is line doesn't have the deformities ...ie you got lucky
    Like a in bred litter of pups there will be some that are ok and some with undershot jaws ,screwed up hips heart defects
    Inbreeding is wrong even if you call it line breeding
    In-breeding does not cause deformities.
    Druydess and dbarabians like this.
         
        10-04-2013, 01:20 PM
      #156
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Chiilaa    
    In-breeding does not cause deformities.
    yes it does
    Undershot jaws and screwed up hips for a start
    Look at inbred humans
         
        10-04-2013, 01:30 PM
      #157
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by southislander    
    yes it does
    Undershot jaws and screwed up hips for a start
    Look at inbred humans
    No. It doesn't. I am one of those against inbreeding, but even I will agree with that. Read the thread instead of just commenting, and you'll realize WHY. It does not CAUSE deformities, it brings hidden problems to the surface. For instance, one bloodline has the genes for screwed up hips hidden that nobody knows about. If you outbreed, that's not a problem because the dominant gene for proper hips in the other horse covers it. If you inbreed, there is no dominant gene to cover it, so the recessive hip problems come to the surface and you have a wonky foal. Makes it no better in my opinion, but saying it causes genetic deformities is just not correct.

    Read up, the last half of the thread is where it's discussed in depth. THEN come back and feel free to comment.
    dbarabians likes this.
         
        10-04-2013, 01:38 PM
      #158
    Trained
    I could not have said it better myself Shoebox.
    You get my vote for class president. LOL
    Southislander there are good reasons for and against inbreeding. Many were discussed here on this thread.
    Reading the entire thread is a good idea if you want to join the discussion. Shalom
    Druydess likes this.
         
        10-04-2013, 02:27 PM
      #159
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Shoebox    
    No. It doesn't. I am one of those against inbreeding, but even I will agree with that. Read the thread instead of just commenting, and you'll realize WHY. It does not CAUSE deformities, it brings hidden problems to the surface. For instance, one bloodline has the genes for screwed up hips hidden that nobody knows about. If you outbreed, that's not a problem because the dominant gene for proper hips in the other horse covers it. ONLY if the the horse you outcross to doesn't have the same hidden gene! If you inbreed, there is no dominant gene to cover it, so the recessive hip problems come to the surface and you have a wonky foal. Makes it no better in my opinion, but saying it causes genetic deformities is just not correct.

    Read up, the last half of the thread is where it's discussed in depth. THEN come back and feel free to comment.
    If there is not genetic testing for the undesired trait, there is no guarantee that the horse you outcross to has a homogygus gene to override it. Also, if the original horse does not exhibit the undesired trait then they must have at least one dominate gene that they can pass to offspring. It's really just a numbers game. And you also have to keep in mind that the numbers are that of the whole population and aren't always obvious in small numbers. For example, my first husband and father of my children has brown eyes, I have blue. According to the punnett square 1 of 4 children would have blue eyes, both my kids have blue eyes. So, I "beat" the odds (if you desire blue eyes) but somewhere out there, there is someone else who got no blue eyes in the same situation.
    Druydess, dbarabians and Arab Mama like this.
         
        10-27-2013, 02:29 AM
      #160
    Started
    Here is a neat video from a hackney breeder on line breeding.
    Heartland Hackney Farm
         

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