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Line-breeding and in-breeding thoughts & reasons

This is a discussion on Line-breeding and in-breeding thoughts & reasons within the Horse Breeding forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category
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    09-19-2013, 08:27 PM
  #21
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlideStop    
I'm not "pick on" your post, it just demonstrates my point well Beau...

It really is the human mind that gets in the way when people think of line breeding. The only reason its wrong is because society says so. It's really not an apples to apples view. Just like you cannot compare breeding an older stallion to a younger mare because its taboo for women to date/marry much older men. Horses have no concept of sexual morals.
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And there's a good reason for that. It's NOT without fault. Genetic problems arise from line/inbreeding in both people AND animals. Yes you can double the good traits, bring them out in a breed - and you can also bring out the bad traits that are line-specific.
     
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    09-19-2013, 08:39 PM
  #22
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoebox    
And there's a good reason for that. It's NOT without fault. Genetic problems arise from line/inbreeding in both people AND animals. Yes you can double the good traits, bring them out in a breed - and you can also bring out the bad traits that are line-specific.
Oh yes, with out a doubt it can absolutely bring out the worst of the worst. The taboo to not inbreed has been around for a long time. It wasn't worth it to risk the possibility of some type of deformity. Now with genetic testing you have a good idea about what will get when parent reproduce. Genetic counseling is quite common now. Now let's say you had a super smart family. They took the egg of a super smart granddaughter and the sperm of a super smart grandfather who have no genetic shortcomings when paired. Still wrong?
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    09-19-2013, 08:51 PM
  #23
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlideStop    
Oh yes, with out a doubt it can absolutely bring out the worst of the worst. The taboo to not inbreed has been around for a long time. It wasn't worth it to risk the possibility of some type of deformity. Now with genetic testing you have a good idea about what will get when parent reproduce. Genetic counseling is quite common now. Now let's say you had a super smart family. They took the egg of a super smart granddaughter and the sperm of a super smart grandfather who have no genetic shortcomings when paired. Still wrong?
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Oh good I'm glad we're on the same page here! If that was the case, then the part of me that thinks inbreeding is wrong would say no, it's just dandy. The part of me that is a bit revolted by the thought just because it's been beaten into me that it's disgusting (society again, haha) would remain unchanged... But you don't KNOW that that would create no genetic shortcomings.

There are genetic tests, but you just can't test for everything. There could be something in the bloodline that nobody knows about but it comes up with a six-legged foal, and because nobody knew to test for it, it wasn't tested for - and it's only in that bloodline, so were they outcrossed it wouldn't be a problem. You can choose what to test for, but there could be any number of issues that could crop up just because nobody thought it would be a possibility, but when you breed two close family BAM, there it is - two genes crossed very badly and there's no way to to tell if that's going to happen. I realize that this is a problem with ANY breeding, but linebreeding multiplies this by SO much that it's just not responsible in my eyes.

IF there was a way to say 100% that there would be NO genetic problems directly stemming from line/inbreeding two horses, I wouldn't really have an issue with it. As another user posted a bit back, there's healthier ways to bring back a breed than risking inbreeding.

I'm having a really hard time trying to explain what I'm trying to say. When we covered this in my Genetics class he showed us a video about line breeding and the unavoidable (and often unforseeable) problems it can cause - even just little things, like a weak heart or whatever that you don't even notice but will shorten the life span. I'll see if I can find it - it really was interesting and good food for thought.

EDIT: You can't test for problems that aren't already known to come from a certain line. That's a better way of explaining it. You can make sure known inbreeding problems don't occur, but you can't 'test' for issues that haven't come out yet - but could and will from a certain close family cross.
     
    09-19-2013, 08:56 PM
  #24
Green Broke
I had a mare, I sold, she was so Line bred.. that she was In bred. The family tree only had a few branches.. back to 8 generations.. Did not know this when I got the mare, found out After I had her registered , Cost a fortune at age 4. Line bred to the point she could be considered In bred. BAD THING.. She was pretty.. BUT stupid..
     
    09-19-2013, 09:02 PM
  #25
Super Moderator
I did not read all of the posts, so forgive me if I am being redundant.

There is an old saying that "If the results are good, we call it line-breeding".
"If the results are not good, we call it in-breeding".

Two of the most successful early-day breeding programs in AQHA history were the King Ranch program that started with the stallion, Old Sorrel. Wimpy, an outstanding in-bred double grandson of Old Sorrel was given the prestigious AQHA registration number P-1. His sire and his dam were both sired by Old Sorrel. Hickory Bill, the sire of Old Sorrel, was the the great grandsire of Wimpy 3 times. Three of his 4 great grandsires was Hickory Bill.

The other famous in-breeding program was Hank Weisecamp's program. He in-bed the Shoemaker horses with much of it centered around Skipper W.

Many people do not know the extent of the culling that comes with any strong in-breeding program. There were years on the King Ranch that only a handful of foals were registered and the others were either shipped across the border to be used and ridden in Mexico or were destroyed. Back in the 50s, there were many very unseemly stories that came out of south Texas about how few horses were 'saved' and used for breeding.

I personally knew Hank Weiscamp. I also know that most of the time during the 60s, he had over 200 mares. I've heard people that knew him much better than I did that said he bred over 300 mares most years back then. You could drive through the San Luis Valley for many miles around Alamosa and see pasture after pasture with a stud and 15 or 20 mares in it. The mares all looked like peas in a pod. Yet, there were some years that Hank only registered 30 or 35 foals. He seldom registered horses until they were yearlings so he could decide which ones to register. The others were sold without papers or any acknowledgement of how they were bred. If you went to see his horses, he would show you only a few and usually would not tell you what horse was running with a set of mares. He owned an auction barn in Alamosa and would run a lot of colts through it in the fall when he took them off the mares. The better ones would be kept until spring, but most of those still did not get registered.

I have all of the old AQHA Stud Books and during the long Colorado winters, you can get desperate for something to do. One winter I went through several of these Stud Books page by page. Some years I found as few as 30 foals registered. When someone culls 75% to 90% of their foal crop, they are intent on setting a type and getting as close to 100% consistency as is possible.

One of the problems come when you find out that you have also 'set' bad traits. Thus, when you see line-bred Weisecamp horses, you find a lost of Mon-orchids and crypt-orchids. You also see a lot of tiny feet and very shallow feet that do not stand up to hard riding, especially in the rocks. The cowboys were I lived used to say the Skipper Ws are what made them like the Hancocks. If they did not buck you off in the morning, you at least had a horse that was still going to be sound late that night and could go in the rocks day after day for 20 years. We used to say that you'd have to cut its head off and hide it to hurt one.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the in-bred Crabbet Arabians that perpetuated the SIDS lethal gene in Arabs?
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    09-19-2013, 10:47 PM
  #26
Started
I think Cherie makes some great points. I will also say that I think when you start inbreeding for a set trait you can loose sight of other traits. As an example, you say we want to breed for a certain ear set. So you have two horses that are related that have great ears but one is really nasty and difficult to handle. You breed that horse because it has great ears. You end up with a foal that has great ears and a bad temperament, you then breed that horse to another one with bad temperament or bad feet, but great ears. Soon you have horses with great ears but are really hard to handle and are unsound at age 9 and there is a very limited market for that kind of horse. I think that's a danger of inbreeding you can hyperfocus on one thing to detriment of others.
     
    09-20-2013, 01:36 AM
  #27
Trained
Golden Horse the first five books of the Hebrew bible are a history of the Jewish people. I do not know if we are all related to Aiden and Eva. I know that I am.
To answer your question about arabs being created by man. They were indeed. Arabs believed in breeding pure strains of the arab only . There are only 5 strains. They did little outcrossing so the breed has been inbred heavily for thousands of years.
The Kiger mustangs were only discovered in the 1970's and only 27 individuals were known. They were released back into two herd management areas 20 in one and 7 in the other. Today thousands of horses are descended from those 27 with apparently no known genetic flaws.
Henry Babson imported 6 horses into the US. A stallion and 5 mares. Babson bred arabians all descend from those 6 horses and there are straight babson bred breeding programs going strong and those horses are highly sought after for outcrossing to other lines.
To me that is too much inbreeding and after the first 2 or 3 generations an outcross needed to me introduced
Spainish bred arabs are known to be heavily inbred as no importations were allowed for decades.
I will not purchase a stallion that is not related to my mares in some way and I want the mares to be linebred to ensure those good traits I desire he pass on are set.
How do you think the different breeds of dogs all developed yet are genetically the same? Cattle and all other livestock were developed regionally from small gene pools/
That is why they are uniform in size and color.
Inbreeding works well when you have two very correct individuals.
Two crooked legged hammer headed horses would produce the same, just as two champion halter horses would. Shalom
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    09-20-2013, 01:41 AM
  #28
Trained
OOPS the above post should say after the second or third generation and outcross needed to BE introduced . Not ME introduced. That is a deadly sin and will get you arrested. LOL Shalom
     
    09-20-2013, 03:56 AM
  #29
Super Moderator
I find this all very interesting. I do know that with father to daughter or mother to son breeding the first generation are usually fine but, it is the offspring from the second generation that often goes wrong.

Getting away from horses, there is a family locally that married 'close' first cousin to first cousin twice. The result from the one part of the family I knew would prove that line breeding in humans was not a good thing!
Two sons were certifiable with mental disorders and one of the two daughters exceedingly 'slow' with learning disabilities.
     
    09-20-2013, 07:52 AM
  #30
Super Moderator
There is one huge difference between the Kiger Mustangs and other examples. While people that in-bred heavily culled for what they wanted, the mustangs were culled by nature. So if there were any with crooked legs, bad feet or any other physical characteristic, by NATURAL SELECTION, they became bear bait and buzzard bait. If they could not make it 20 miles from feed to water on a dry year, they did not make it at all.

When you look at large numbers of mustangs several characteristics strike you right away. They consistently are small, have big feet and short pasterns, are narrow, light muscled, have scrawny butts, steep croups with very low-set tails and are frequently slightly cow-hocked. You see a lot of plain heads and ewe necks but I am not sure they play into the 'survival of the fittest' theme that runs through the least 'managed' units. I am sure that the common characteristics you see are all there by 'natural selection'.

They have been greatly modified over the years. They had a huge infusion of TB blood in the late 40s and 50s with the addition of many remount stallions from the disbanded Cavalry. Many Indian Tribes turned out these studs, too. Many western ranches also lost or turned out stock in the winter and could not re-catch a number of these ranch horses in the spring.

I know of one bucking stock contractor that turned out half draft bucking studs so try to raise cheap bucking stock that could be caught later. One of those stallions was turned out on the Red Desert in Wyoming and other in Northern Colorado. I am not sure if they ever got to gather any of the results as shortly after that, the Federal mustangs laws went into effect.
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