Line-breeding and in-breeding thoughts & reasons - Page 6
   

       The Horse Forum > Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics > Horse Breeding

Line-breeding and in-breeding thoughts & reasons

This is a discussion on Line-breeding and in-breeding thoughts & reasons within the Horse Breeding forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category

    Like Tree254Likes

     
    LinkBack Thread Tools
        09-20-2013, 12:23 PM
      #51
    Showing
    A lot of culls during the Arabian heyday were sold/given away without papers, because the high profile breeding farms that produced them didn't want their names associated in any way, shape or form with those horses.

    It's a dirty little secret of the Arabian industry that nobody talks about or admits to, but it did happen and it happened with quite alarming regularity. The breeders may have not admitted to those horses but they knowingly threw them out into the general horse populace as grades, and of course many of them were bred regardless, which means the genetic defects were passed on.

    It's not all sunshine and roses when you inbreed and if you're unwilling to kill the resulting genetic nightmares, you're willingly perpetuating those genetic faults since someone, somewhere will breed at least a good portion of them.
         
    Sponsored Links
    Advertisement
     
        09-20-2013, 12:28 PM
      #52
    Started
    I think it requires a lot of research to do correctly. Species that have not been extremely isolated or selectively bred tend to have very diverse gene pools. Small, isolated populations and selectively bred ones have smaller gene pools to choose from.

    For example, two friends of mine are not related, but came from similar areas. They decided to have a baby, and discovered that the baby has a genetic disease. They were both healthy, with no real defects in either family, but carrying the same recessive gene. I know two families like this. I believe for hundreds of years, many populations were fairly isolated, by location, tradition or prejudice. It was traditional in many populations(English, French, Egyptian, to name a few) for close relatives, even siblings to marry. Where as before, most people, and especially the poor, would loose babies and children that had the slightest defect to disease, now many children have moderate to severe defects that would never survive birth or infancy, and are growing up to produce children of their own. There is no 'culling' in our species.

    Similarly with horses, people are in breeding and line breeding for specific traits, and loosing sight of the larger picture, as a previous poster mentioned with the ear example. The gene pool gets smaller, the genetic defects get more concentrated, and more often than not, the soundness, health, sanity and well being of the horse are forgotten for the beautiful, colorful or talented. Even if a foal is born defective, people loose sight of breeding for the best possible off spring and breed crazy, poorly conformed or genetically unsound horses because they find the beautiful, they are attached to them or want their own foal. Culling is not done NEARLY enough in the equine world.

    I have no problem with line breeding, done carefully by a very experienced breeder, but more often than not I disagree with it. I have seen thoroughbreds that are so fragile conformationally that they barely last till 2 or 3 without breaking down, but while they did run, they were brilliant. One mare I knew personally had the same stallion 6 times in the first 4 generations of her pedigree. She was so fragile mentally and physically that she had no practical use, other than to be a brood mare.
         
        09-20-2013, 12:29 PM
      #53
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Druydess    
    No-- it really isn't. All beings have a purpose. Many horses are healthy and able to perform just fine without being breeding perfection. Jumping to extreme conclusions isn't helpful in a debate.
    But it's not an extreme, it's the price of the act. It's my understanding that breeders want to produce the best example of the breed possible, to promote the true breed, that's why they choose to inbreed rather than bring in other "pure" lines because the chances are greater to get the traits they want, despite the scientifically proven fact that even with selective breeding bad traits surface. But with breeding to other lines, your chances of passing along those bad traits are lessoned.

    I'm not understanding how you can say in one hand it's OK to produce less than great examples of a breed by choice, and in the other say that you only breed to produce the best of the breed. And in using Arabs as an example, the breed is SO large, I find it VERY hard to believe that only one sire and one mare pass along certain "perfect" traits.
         
        09-20-2013, 12:33 PM
      #54
    Green Broke
    That's actually not true as has been pointed out by now- several times, but you're entitled to your opinion.
    If you can't understand after all the info presented, then I'm sorry, but I can't help you.
    Maybe someone else will have better luck explaining it. :)
         
        09-20-2013, 12:36 PM
      #55
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Speed Racer    
    A lot of culls during the Arabian heyday were sold/given away without papers, because the high profile breeding farms that produced them didn't want their names associated in any way, shape or form with those horses.

    It's a dirty little secret of the Arabian industry that nobody talks about or admits to, but it did happen and it happened with quite alarming regularity. The breeders may have not admitted to those horses but they knowingly threw them out into the general horse populace as grades, and of course many of them were bred regardless, which means the genetic defects were passed on.

    It's not all sunshine and roses when you inbreed and if you're unwilling to kill the resulting genetic nightmares, you're willingly perpetuating those genetic faults since someone, somewhere will breed at least a good portion of them.
    I OWNED ONE!!!! McCoy, anyone??
    And as pretty & sturdy as she was, WHAT A PSYCHO!!!!! Never abused physically a day in her life, her sole purpose was to kill who ever tried to ride her by whatever means necessary. Guess who bought her only to find out the result of inbreeding? ME, a 12 year old 4-H HOME!!! And guess what? When we discovered her true self, guess who we sold her to? A BREEDER!!!

    Yes, this is only one example. BUT, I'm not the only one this has happened to. There are countless others, because in-breeders DON'T cull, and just pass along the nightmares, not just in the McCoy line, a lot of people have a very bad taste in their mouths about Arabs. This goes for other breeds as well.
         
        09-20-2013, 12:42 PM
      #56
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Druydess    
    That's actually not true as has been pointed out by now- several times, but you're entitled to your opinion.
    If you can't understand after all the info presented, then I'm sorry, but I can't help you.
    Maybe someone else will have better luck explaining it. :)
    I have no problems understanding the information provided by scientific & proven sources. What I am trying to get explained to me, either from you or someone else, is how it can be considered responsible breeding?

    Yes, it's been pointed out several times that in-breeding CAN produce desired traits. I get that, accept that, and am not ignoring that. But that doesn't mean it hasn't been proven to be 100%. I am not tunnel blind to the benefits of line-breeding, I'm curious as to the reasons that pro in-breeders appear to be tunnel blind to the detriments of in-breeding.
         
        09-20-2013, 01:35 PM
      #57
    Trained
    Allow me to make this simple.
    It is a responsible breeding practice when you breed two correct individuals with the traits you desire to be passed on.
    It is not a responsible breeding practice when you breed 2 individuals both having the same major fault that is likely to be passed on.
    When you limit the gene pool after more than a couple of generations then you are as you put it a few post back playing russian roulette.
    I will continue to use the practice in my breeding program and if you think that is detrimental to my horses then don't buy one from me.
    I sleep very well at night and my horses are free of genetic flaws and major physical faults if I bred them.
    I am not stating an outcross needs to occur every so other generation to ensure disease resistance good bones and to allow outside traits I desire into my program.
    Now we have given you plenty of proof and your points I read and understood. They are valid in certain context.
    If you choose to continue the discussion I will. I have given you my reasons.
    If you want to argue do it with yourself. Shalom
    Druydess, CessBee and doubleopi like this.
         
        09-20-2013, 01:38 PM
      #58
    Trained
    Sorry once again for posting something I worded wrong.
    I meant to say in the above post.... That I am stating an outcross needs to occur.....
    This new medication for I was prescribed is blurring my vision. That or it might be old age. Shalom
         
        09-20-2013, 01:39 PM
      #59
    Yearling
    DB. Is it also responsible to breed horses that cannot be registered?
         
        09-20-2013, 01:44 PM
      #60
    Trained
    Msbavin it is not responsible to continue a practice in anyones breeding program that routinely results in a useless horse. That is immoral IMO.
    If Star and Dancer who are 1/2 siblings ever threw a foal with a fault that rendered it useless I would never repeat the breeding. Even though the other 5 are nice horses. That would be the warning something was genetically there and was being magnified.
    Even a small chance would prevent me from crossing any two individuals.
    By the way good question. Shalom
    Druydess and Arab Mama like this.
         

    Thread Tools

    Similar Threads
    Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
    The worst reasons for breeding your mare. Golden Horse Horse Breeding 73 04-23-2013 11:47 AM
    Line breeding Crossover Horse Breeding 5 10-17-2011 12:33 AM
    Line-Breeding/In-Breeding candandy49 Horse Breeding 7 05-26-2011 04:25 PM



    All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:00 PM.


    Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
    Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
    Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0