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Linebreeding/Inbreeding?

This is a discussion on Linebreeding/Inbreeding? within the Horse Breeding forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category
  • Problems with inbreeding a pure bred horse
  • Inbred foals, are they usually ok

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    05-16-2013, 11:15 AM
  #11
Trained
We ramp up to 2x the grain and all the hay (no fescue) the mare can eat. As long as she looks good and not losing weight, you're fine.
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    05-16-2013, 11:19 AM
  #12
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueSpark    
first, RELAX. It sounds like you care alot and are willing to do what it takes to help this mare out. There is a really good chance it will all be 100% ok and you will have a happy, healthy foal in no time.

I don't agree with inbreeding or linebreeding, I think it is asking for problems. If it is to be attempted, as was mentioned, it should only be don't by very(very, very) experienced, knowledgable breeders with specific goals in mind. That said, in most cases the foal is just fine.
Thanks. I am trying hard to relax. I have a pretty strict "don't breed crap horses" philosophy so this (a crappily conformed horse breeding to its own crappy progeny) is kind of my idea of a nightmare. Maybe that's silly, but its how I feel.

A good friend of mine has offered to let the mare foal at her place - and she's very experienced with breeding - so when the time comes Mom will be in very good hands at a reputable facility with a reputable breeder/trainer to see her through.

I appreciate everyone's comments and support. Its making me feel a little bit better about this poor foal's chances. I just want it to be able to have a happy, normal and useful life.
     
    05-16-2013, 11:30 AM
  #13
Trained
Simply southern there are 5 mares here that are the result of breeding their dams back to their own father. 2 QHs and 3 arabians. Line breeding and inbreeding set type and has been practiced for thousands of years. In fact it is the only sure way to do so.
In fact the babson arabians are all descended from only 6 horses imported in the 1930's. They are highly sought after .
Having said that some flaws from this breeding may be passed on it seems.
It may also pass on the lethal white if both parents are carriers.
As stated relax. Shalom
Nothing you can do but worry and that is not going to solve anything.
Good luck.
     
    05-16-2013, 02:39 PM
  #14
Started
First thing to do, is not listen to old myths about inbreeding. It does not cause foals born with three legs etc. Next, don't stress about it. Nothing you can do now. And I'm quite sure the foal will be fine.

What inbreeding does do, is double up on the strong - or indeed the weak points, of the horse one is doubling up on.

Knowledgeable breeders only, should attempt inbreeding. It is mostly done to set type in a line. Willy-nilly inbreeding, is not advised.

Many years ago, I wrote this piece. You might like to read through it.

Inbreeding Linebreeding and Outcrossing

Can you show pics of the horses in this breeding. Might give us some idea of what you could expect.

Lizzie
     
    05-16-2013, 03:04 PM
  #15
Trained
Good article feathered feet.
I enjoyed reading it and totally agree. Shalom
     
    05-16-2013, 05:29 PM
  #16
Started
Ahh line breeding vs inbreeding. It gets wooly I am not a fan of it in any way shape or form. I think it can result is bad situations. I really worry about breeding programs that are based entirely on line breeding. Its part of the reason there is such an issue with cancers in various purebred dogs (goldens in particular). I know there is a train of thought that says if you inbreed/line breed through the genetic bottle neck you end up with stronger genetics by weeding out the weaker. I am not sure I fully support that idea. Most lab mice are the result of line breeding intensely which is why we can create mice without immune systems and with certain genetic diseases. Just look at the banana, which is the result of inbreeding extensively for generations and any new or modified banana virus would basically kill the entire worlds supply of bananas. Likewise, cheetahs are so inbred that they are basically all twins (they seem to be doing okay though).

Your foal will probably be fine as its probably not generations of line breeding but an isolated event.

I would worry less about lethal white (you can't do anything about that at this point in the game). I would have a really good vet on call and have a good foaling area and foal watch! Mini's are known for trouble delivering. They seem to be particularly prone to "red bag" deliveries in which the placenta prematurely detaches, depriving the foal of oxygen. This results in a dummy foal, where the foal looks normal for the first few hours and then gradually fades it forgets how to nurse, wanders far from the mother and ends up with numerous other issues. You can reduce red bag risk by knowing how to identify it and if you see it to call the vet ASAP while removing the placenta from the foal and delivering it as fast as possible. This has nothing to do with genetics and everything to do with bad luck.
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    05-16-2013, 05:44 PM
  #17
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by rookie    
ahh line breeding vs inbreeding. It gets wooly I am not a fan of it in any way shape or form. I think it can result is bad situations. I really worry about breeding programs that are based entirely on line breeding. Its part of the reason there is such an issue with cancers in various purebred dogs (goldens in particular). I know there is a train of thought that says if you inbreed/line breed through the genetic bottle neck you end up with stronger genetics by weeding out the weaker. I am not sure I fully support that idea. Most lab mice are the result of line breeding intensely which is why we can create mice without immune systems and with certain genetic diseases. Just look at the banana, which is the result of inbreeding extensively for generations and any new or modified banana virus would basically kill the entire worlds supply of bananas. Likewise, cheetahs are so inbred that they are basically all twins (they seem to be doing okay though).

Your foal will probably be fine as its probably not generations of line breeding but an isolated event.

I would worry less about lethal white (you can't do anything about that at this point in the game). I would have a really good vet on call and have a good foaling area and foal watch! Mini's are known for trouble delivering. They seem to be particularly prone to "red bag" deliveries in which the placenta prematurely detaches, depriving the foal of oxygen. This results in a dummy foal, where the foal looks normal for the first few hours and then gradually fades it forgets how to nurse, wanders far from the mother and ends up with numerous other issues. You can reduce red bag risk by knowing how to identify it and if you see it to call the vet ASAP while removing the placenta from the foal and delivering it as fast as possible. This has nothing to do with genetics and everything to do with bad luck.

I think you have missed THE most important point here. Inbreeding and linebreeding DO NOT CAUSE problems. Whatever problems there are expressed in the offspring, were and are, there all the time.

This is where responsible breeders, know everything they are able to discover, about the animals in the pedigree, of the dogs/horses they are breeding. Without knowledge, a complete outcross (difficult to find in most purebred animals today) or even the cross of two completely different breeds, does not mean certain genetic defects will not show up in the offspring. Just look at how many dog mutts, have dreadful genetic problems.

It all depends on the breeder, how responsibly they have investigated the background of the animals they are breeding and of course, if they have done all the necessary genetic testing.

Lizzie
     
    05-16-2013, 05:59 PM
  #18
Trained
I have no fear of linebreeding or inbreeding. I purchased my stallion because he was related to all my arabian mares, Egyptian and polish, and to set the type in my breeding program.
I know of no breeding program that does not line or inbreed. The results are too predictable not to. Shalom
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    05-16-2013, 06:32 PM
  #19
Started
No inbreed does not cause a problem but it does make it more visible. As an example tay sacs in humans. Its a recessive gene that improperly folds proteins leading to a build up of toxins and plaques that cause death. Its common for people to be genetically tested so that they do not produce a child with this disorder. As a recessive gene you can carry it and not be affected. If you produce a child with someone with the gene you get a manifestation of the disorder. Inbreeding did not cause the disease but it did make it manifest. Look at the highly unique disorders (psychological and physical) that affect many in the Amish community. This is the result of a relatively small gene pool resulting in recessive traits expressing. So, line breeding does not cause a disorder (unless we start talking about spontaneous mutations that are also recessive), it does cause the manifestation of traits.

In horses, someone mentioned morgans going back to one stallion (Justin Morgans horse). While they are all line bred they are also bred for a "cresty neck" that cresty neck which could be an offshoot of inbreeding/line breeding is also associated with metabolic disorder which results in laminitis. One could say that metabolic disorder in Morgans is a result of them being linebred for a specific trait.

Horses in the wild do inbreed but probably not to the same extent or intensity as captive horses do. When wild horse do inbreed/linebreed in the wild they are acted on by often cruel natural forces that result in the death of those unsuitable. The number of HYPP horses and Frame/Frame breedings that occur or are asked about on this board alone indicate that these deletrious effects are not often selected against and are sometimes selected for.

I completely agree that people should research and know the genetics of their horses. Those that do that are in the minority. This is in part because most people feel their horse is outstanding. If people did not think their horse was breeding quality they would not breed it. Most people feel their horse has a great personality, flashy color, its out of XXX stallion or it would be a good mother etc. Not many say, I want to breed it and Y is in the breed so I should test for that.
     
    05-16-2013, 11:07 PM
  #20
Foal
Okay, y'all are making me feel a lot better. Both of my AQHA horses are foundation bred, so I know they pull from the same gene pool, but I was concerned because of how close the breeding was and the general less than stellar quality of the mare. Y'all are making me feel much better about my odds of getting a healthy foal. The delivery may be touchy but I know I have the best help I could ask for there. If the foal can be delivered safely, it will be. I was just afraid something would be majorly genetically wrong with it.
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