Magic's Foaling Thread due 5/15/13 - Page 3 - The Horse Forum
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post #21 of 25 Old 03-07-2013, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by lives2hope View Post
I am aware that horses that are not overo can carry the gene. I know that my horse does not have overo pattern in her back ground for the 7 generations I can trace, not sure if that makes a difference or not.

The stallion however has had some rather extensive genetic testing done. So I can ask the owner if she knows. I also know that it is not very common to have this issue if you are breeding two horses and neither of them have the overo pattern. So I may have this testing done later on Magic if we decide to have another foal with a paint stallion I don't believe at this time it is necessary. Both horse have to be carriers in order to have a lethal white foal. I just read that even some overo horses are not carriers. It is a good test to have done, and if our vet had recommended it we would have had it done.
It makes no difference how many generations back a horse is registered as "overo", as most of the time, registries have no clue about genetics and are just listing the horse's approximate phenotype - what it looks like to their untrained eyes, basically. "Overo" itself is a stupid term that is outdated and lazy, and the registries should have stopped using it years ago. It basically means "oh the horse has white, but not crossing the back, so we can't be bothered finding out what is causing the white so let's just call it overo". There are several different genes that are lumped under that horrible umbrella term, and that confusion leads to potential risk to the foal when people start making statements like "not all overos are carriers".

Any horse being bred that is of any breed that has frame (or any horse of unknown breeding) should be tested before being bred as a matter of course. It doesn't matter how much white they have, or how much white they don't have. If the potential is there, a simple $25 test can save the 25% chance of a foal that is born to die a slow, painful death within 72 hours of birth. Any argument against that is absurd and irresponsible. If you plan to breed your mare again, to ANY stallion that could possibly carry frame (not just a Paint FYI) then it is your responsibility as her owner to test her.
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post #22 of 25 Old 03-07-2013, 09:42 PM Thread Starter
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I appreciate your concern for my horses foal however I am far from being an irresponsible horse owner, which is something I really don't feel the need to try and prove to you nor anyone else. There is a 25% chance if both horses are the carrier for this gene not otherwise. It is not likely that both of these horses carry this gene. Lets try keep the doom and gloom to a minimum. If you have an animal suffering and you allow it to suffer for whatever reason that is on you that is not something we practice at our house. If we had a lethal white foal it would be put to sleep immediately since they don't suffer unless they eat there would be none of that going on around here.

As I stated previously this was something I discussed with our vet before we breed and back when we were in the beginning stages of thinking about breeding. He felt that the test was not needed unless we bred to an overo stud and even went so far as to say, 'it would be good to have it done if you bred to an overo stud but I don't really think that is something you are going to have to worry about.' Now we have since switched vets (because we moved) and I will discuss it with her next month when she gives Magic her check up. If she thinks this is something that Magic needs then I will have her do the test for us.

I strongly rely on my vet knowledge to help me out with these kinds of things since my previous vet was very knowledgeable on this subject and knew my horses back ground and breeding very well this is not something I'm going to worry about at this time. I am sorry if you disagree with that.
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post #23 of 25 Old 03-07-2013, 10:23 PM
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Vets are your number one for all medical and health problems and concerns. When it comes to color genetics, it isn't a big health concern to them for the most part and they know that chances are lower. There aren't too many lethal white foals associated with breeding two horses that don't look like frame overos. It does happen though, and it is heartbreaking to all involved (for the mare as well).

Sorry if you feel defensive, but possible frame x frame breedings are a very sensitive subject here. We want to see healthy, happy foals that were bred for a particular goal and purpose. Last thing we want to see to what should be a wonderful new life turn into a tradegy that could've been prevented.
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post #24 of 25 Old 03-08-2013, 05:15 AM Thread Starter
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I'm not sure how to put this in a way that translates. It's not about offending me it's about alienating with the way things are phrased. I think that we really need to be careful when speaking with other horse people especially if we are trying to educate them about something, that we do not alienate them and try to do it in a way that is as respectful as possible. I strongly believe that continuing education as a rider is something that everyone should do. I have no issue admitting that genetics is not something I've studied extensively or very much at all. I love for people to share their knowledge. I think when we come together with a mutual understanding and basic respect for each other sharing that knowledge is something that can be very well received by everyone. I don't think this was phrased in a way most people would receive well. In fact to be totally honest I had my husband read it who has a much mellower personality then I do and he found it to be even more offensive then I did (maybe because it is his foal in Magic or maybe he is being extra protective of me, I'm a little more fragile then normal right now).

So let me put it this way that can hopefully be respectful too you guys. I believe that it is part of your vets job to put the safety and well being of your animals first. I think when you breed you need to be prepared for all possible outcomes. This is not something that we undertook lightly, in fact it is something that we as a family have deliberated over for sometime. We have turned down numerous opportunities for free breeding's/discounted breeding's because it wasn't the right time or we felt the stallion wasn't a good match for our girl. Before we bred our mare we looked at these things: 1. Has she proven herself as a performance horse, 2. Conformation, Temperament, and Soundness. 3. Will her foals be marketable. Since she passed, we decided to go ahead and breed. I am not opposed to having my mare tested if she needs to be, but if my vet says it's unnecessary and no offense I'm going take my trusted vets advice who actually took the time when I asked the question to begin with, to go over my mares breeding and background before answering. I have found him to be fascinating listening to him rattle off the possibilities of color and what stallions he believed would cross well with our Magic. He is exclusively a horse vet, he has spent his life educating himself about horses. And we were extremely sad to loose him as vet. I find it to be a little ridiculous quite honestly, that without knowing him or his back ground, would question and basically around about tell me he knows nothing about these kinds of things. I really truly do not want to offend people but I think at this time the subject should be dropped. Your opinions are of course welcome but I think this one has been beat to the ground. I would really like to keep Magics foaling thread as upbeat as possible. And as I said before and really really mean it I do appreciate your opinions and especially your concern for the well being of our foal.
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post #25 of 25 Old 03-08-2013, 08:32 AM
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Consider yourself aware of LWOS now and that frame overo has a test available in the event of you breeding again. If your vet is unaware of this or what frame looks like on a horse (or that it can hide within other patterns), you might want to let him know too. From what I read, they just tried to be helpful and informative to let you know what this does exist and you're the one that shot them down without a second thought. Just my two cents. Good luck with your mare.

Last edited by Poseidon; 03-08-2013 at 08:35 AM.
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