The Morals of Breeding - Page 3
 
 

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The Morals of Breeding

This is a discussion on The Morals of Breeding within the Horse Breeding forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category

     
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        07-03-2010, 01:00 PM
      #21
    Yearling
    If it weren't for good, responsible breeders, there would be few or no good quality horses.

    I think, if you have taken a really objective look at your mare, and pair her with a stallion you've been equally objective about (let's face it, all horses have faults), you've taken into consideration the money involved, the time involved, the skills needed (for training and handling), and the risks involved... go ahead and breed your horse.

    The people who "feed" slaugtherhouses, or rescues are those who breed because "they can". These people don't weigh anything - not the faults, not the strengths, not the marketability of the foal SHOULD something happen to them. People who don't account for the time it takes to raise and TRAIN a foal (even if you plan to sell that foal as a weanling, it should be handled enough to not be "someone else's problem")

    If you don't fall into this category - you don't fall under the category of producing another slaughter bound horse.

    Yes, some quality animals go through auctions - some are bought for slaughter... not nearly as many of those though as there are just plain fugly or "rank" horses.
         
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        07-03-2010, 02:08 PM
      #22
    Showing
    I have no problem with someone breeding own mare (even without show record). As long as the person knows what he/she is doing (I'm talking about knowledge of pedigree and conformation match, disposition, how to care for mare and foal, etc.), and the resulting foal will be cared, trained, and (in the end) marketable if it comes to it (as we can't plan for 30 years ahead anyway). With that being said things always can go wrong, and even with the best parents you never know what you can get, but at least the chance is really small.

    Not every foal should come from the olympic winners, and if it would be a case too many of us would not be able to afford a horse.
         
        07-04-2010, 11:21 PM
      #23
    Trained
    For me it comes down to a rescue is not going to do what I want to do. They just do not exist and IF by some chance they are out there the time cost and trouble to find them is not worth it. Also most rescues put restrictions on what you can and can not do with the horse. I am not going to put $35K into training and then showing and proving a horse to not be able to do as I wish with it.

    In short I breed b/c it is cheaper then buying and the chances of finding one from a rescue is slime to non.
         
        07-05-2010, 12:09 AM
      #24
    Yearling
    With my rescue contract, you cannot sell the animal if you can't keep it- I will purchase it back. I don't want one of my kids to end up at auction.

    I don't allow breeding of mares. I have any males gelded prior to adoption.

    I do require that yearly, a checkup with the vet is done, and a certificate signed by the vet stating that the animal has been given ample feed, water, shelter, hoof and veterinary care.

    Other than that, I have no limitations. Some of my rescues are companion sound only and are pasture puffs or buddy horses. Some of them have gone on to have good careers as 4H horses. One of my TB crosses that I rescued from the feedlot pen is now doing level 3 dressage. I have several that have gone on to be jumpers, some are working cow horses.

    There are good horses that come through rescue. I do agree with you though nrhareiner that not every person wants a rescue horse, nor do they want to take the time to train one for what they need. I think you are in a very special niche with your horses. For the vast majority of the horses I save, they are companions, not show horses.

    And I am proud to say that today, my 757 rescue horse was adopted. 757 lives saved in the last 15 years! =)
         
        07-05-2010, 12:22 AM
      #25
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by draftrider    
    With my rescue contract, you cannot sell the animal if you can't keep it- I will purchase it back. I don't want one of my kids to end up at auction.

    Would you buy it back at the going market rate? That is one of the bigest problems with rescues. I take a horse put training into it and then once I am done with it I can not sell it to get my investment back. NOT HERE. I am NOT going to put $30K+ into training a horse that I can not sell.


    I don't allow breeding of mares. I have any males gelded prior to adoption.

    Next problem. I train and prove my horses so that I can then breed them and make my investment back. To improve on the next generation.


    I do require that yearly, a checkup with the vet is done, and a certificate signed by the vet stating that the animal has been given ample feed, water, shelter, hoof and veterinary care.

    I do all my own vet care as fare as shots and even when I need blood work done I pull it and take it to the vet. I rarely use a vet even for breeding work. I do that here also from collection to AI. So again a stipulation that at least for me in not something I need or would want to HAVE to do.

    Other than that, I have no limitations. Some of my rescues are companion sound only and are pasture puffs or buddy horses. Some of them have gone on to have good careers as 4H horses. One of my TB crosses that I rescued from the feedlot pen is now doing level 3 dressage. I have several that have gone on to be jumpers, some are working cow horses.

    There are good horses that come through rescue. I do agree with you though nrhareiner that not every person wants a rescue horse, nor do they want to take the time to train one for what they need. I think you are in a very special niche with your horses. For the vast majority of the horses I save, they are companions, not show horses.

    And I am proud to say that today, my 757 rescue horse was adopted. 757 lives saved in the last 15 years! =)
    I think it is great that there are people doing what you do. It is also great that their are people who can and want to take then on. Put the money into them and not get any of it back. I want that option.
         
        07-05-2010, 01:46 AM
      #26
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TheLastUnicorn    
    If it weren't for good, responsible breeders, there would be few or no good quality horses.
    Yes, yes yes yes yes yes yes. And some more yeses.

    The irresponsible people should not be the only ones to dictate and control the horse population. Poorly bred or abused/neglected horses are not for everyone and it's not irresponsible to buy a horse or breed a horse that you want and will have a purpose for and love and care for.
         
        07-05-2010, 03:24 AM
      #27
    Yearling
    I charge a small, reasonable adoption fee, usually 250$ for a rescue horse. I will pay them that amount back. I am sorry, but it would be your choice to put what training etc into the animal as you choose. Should I have to pay you for caring for your own horse? Training, feeding, boarding, vet bills etc are the responsibility of the owner.

    Likewise, I have had horses I've had to put thousands into to get them back to health and happiness. Should I charge the new owner for all the work I put into them? If I did, I'd never find any horses homes, and then I could help no one.

    Why would you breed a rescue horse? Rarely would they have registration papers- many are mixed breed. Just because it has a uterus doesn't mean it needs to be used. =)

    I do almost all my own vet work too. However, the AVERAGE horse owner doesn't. How many times have we seen threads with a crying owner, a horse with a little boo-boo and people begging them to call a vet? You or I would know what to do with the wound- heck my vet is confidant enough with my skills that he'll even just mail me medicines if I need them.

    Reiner, you need to remember that the majority of people that adopt from me are not world class champion horse owners. They are the average mom and pop wanting family horses to take down the road.

    We can choose to disagree. We are in 2 different worlds here as far as equines go. It sounds like you have been really burned by some rescues, and I agree wholeheartedly that there are some that are just off the wall with the requirements they have.

    I am simply trying to do the best I can, to save as many good horses as possible responsibly and ethically, and to place them in good (hopefully lifelong!) homes. =)
         
        07-05-2010, 11:56 AM
      #28
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by draftrider    
    I charge a small, reasonable adoption fee, usually 250$ for a rescue horse. I will pay them that amount back. I am sorry, but it would be your choice to put what training etc into the animal as you choose. Should I have to pay you for caring for your own horse? Training, feeding, boarding, vet bills etc are the responsibility of the owner.

    The thing is that I can sell the horse for what it is worth. I would have less of a problem taking in a horse from a rescue and putting the training on it
    IF I could get that value back. If I go and buy a horse or breed for one and put the training into it I am free to sell it and recoup some of the cost of training it. If I have to sell it back once it is trained then I am out my time money and so on and the person looking for a good show horse even at a lower level which some of the rescues I have seen would do well at is out a good solid mount b/c I have to give it or sell it back to the rescue. So now what is the rescue going to do with that horse? Re home it for anouther $250? Most likely to a home in which has no idea of the training ability of that horse and will just mess it back up. Instead of me selling the horse to a home in which I know will continue the training and showing of the horse. Which is really better?

    Likewise, I have had horses I've had to put thousands into to get them back to health and happiness. Should I charge the new owner for all the work I put into them? If I did, I'd never find any horses homes, and then I could help no one.

    If the horse is truly worth it then you should get more then what a pasture puff is worth. This would be no different then if I went out and got a horse that turned out to be a puck. Put a lot of time and money into the horse and it turns out not to be worth it. It happens. Also. Perhaps that horse should not have been rehabbed. As bad as that sounds I see a lot of rescues putting resources into horses who will never contribute out side of recycling feed. That money might have been better served rescuing a horse that could contribute.


    Why would you breed a rescue horse? Rarely would they have registration papers- many are mixed breed. Just because it has a uterus doesn't mean it needs to be used. =)

    I agree that 99% of rescue horses should never be bred. However it comes down at least for me an investment type deal again. Some people have no desire to breed which is good as most do not do what it takes to do it correctly. These are the people who perhaps need to be the ones looking at the rescues. Problem is most of these people do not have the now how or resources to get them properly trained.

    I do almost all my own vet work too. However, the AVERAGE horse owner doesn't. How many times have we seen threads with a crying owner, a horse with a little boo-boo and people begging them to call a vet? You or I would know what to do with the wound- heck my vet is confidant enough with my skills that he'll even just mail me medicines if I need them.

    I do not think a rescue to service if the person running it could not do a lot of their own work. Just too much cost with a vet.

    Reiner, you need to remember that the majority of people that adopt from me are not world class champion horse owners. They are the average mom and pop wanting family horses to take down the road.

    This is a good place and fit for most of these horses. Again these are the type of people who do not and should not be breeding anyway. So again a good fit. This is in a way where I started. However if I had I would not be where I am today. As the first horses I bought ( still have one of them) have gone on to pay for the other and so on.

    We can choose to disagree. We are in 2 different worlds here as far as equines go. It sounds like you have been really burned by some rescues, and I agree wholeheartedly that there are some that are just off the wall with the requirements they have.

    I am simply trying to do the best I can, to save as many good horses as possible responsibly and ethically, and to place them in good (hopefully lifelong!) homes. =)
    I am glade that there are people like your self that do this. The horses need people who care and want to do this type of thing. I just have a problem with some of their regent rules and then when you go and look they do not even abide by them. They beg for money they skimp on things and so many other problems I see that I will not even go into. Then and this is what really gets me. They get on their high horse and look down on breeders and even a lot of trainers and so on. Will not even donate to them any longer. I have seen too much wast.

    I am not at all saying this is you or even all rescues. Just the vast majority of them at least around here. I have seen them leave vets and feed stores and hay suppliers in the lurch with hugh bills when I know they have collected donations that should have covered it and then keep taking on more and more horses.
         
        07-05-2010, 12:11 PM
      #29
    Yearling
    Yes, I have seen the same thing. It disgusts me! I rarely ask for donations- only if it is absolutely necessary. I am a 501c3, and donations are deductible- and if people want to help they sure can. But I don't ask for it.

    You can ask my vet, farrier, feed store, hay man- they get paid before anyone else does. I f I do need to charge something they know I am good for it and it will be paid within a month.

    I have looked into adopting a horse I found in another rescue- and I was not willing to jump through their hoops, only to never have ownership title to the horse. A friend of mine adopted 2 horses from a "rescue" which is probably the largest and most famous in my state. When she moved her horses across the road to her father in law's house to graze down 20 acres of prime pasture (mind you, she could SEE her horses from her kitchen window!) the rescue did a "spot check", found the horses moved to another property, and got pissed and seized them. Why? Because she failed to tell them that she "moved" the horses to another location.

    Those are the Rescue Nazi's.... not all of us are bad, we care deeply about our animals, but I know that if I am not responsible and careful in my placements I can't help anybody.

    And I am certain Reiner, NONE of the horses I have ever adopted out would be worth the money you are talking about. If I ever had one that was, and the owner wanted to sell it- I would discuss with them. My point in restricting the resale is simply because I don't want a nightmare of one of the horses I have worked blood sweat and tears over ending up in an auction. I think that you can see my point too, correct?
         
        07-05-2010, 12:17 PM
      #30
    Yearling
    As far as looking down on breeders- we have a 6 person board of directors. I breed Golden Retrievers, rabbits, poultry, goats, sheep and hogs. One of our other board members breeds parrots, Shnauzers, and pugs. Another person raises American Bulldogs and pugs. Another person breeds Corgies and Scotties.. I think you get my point.

    We don't look down on RESPONSIBLE breeding. We DO look down on people that stuff dogs in rabbit cages and keep them in sheds where they never see the light of day. We look down on people that just get some dogs, throw them in the yard and never play with them and let them breed willynilly with no control of anything. Or those that don't get their cats spayed and they crank out litter after litter of barn kittens and then beg us to take them because they can't find homes for them.

    They are the problem- not responsible breeders.
         

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