The Morals of Breeding - Page 4 - The Horse Forum
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post #31 of 45 Old 07-05-2010, 12:17 PM
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I'm confused draftrider.... who is breeding a rescue horse?

I thought the OP had a registered QH mare, with good lines, good conformation and a great temperment that she(?) wanted to breed to get a foal with a bit of her in it?

I see nothing wrong with that.

I don't agree with "collecting" horses from rescues and breeding them, nor do I have any problem with rescues putting a non-breeding clause on the horses they find homes for (no different than the SPCA having their mandatory spay and neutering). Most rescues I've come across will only put limitations on horses who have a soundness issue when it comes to what they can and can't do for "work" - again, I see nothing wrong with this, as a lot of people who DO purchase (adopt... whatever you want to call it) rescue horses often don't know much about horses.

I don't totally agree with reiner's statement that it's "Cheaper" to breed a foal than buy one.

Here's some math :

Say you do AI to a quality stud... I'll go with a stud fee of about $1000 (because if you want a performance horse, the sires usually come with a stud fee around that mark... unless you're breeding to unknown stallions or young studs with no show career yet, either would be a "risk" )

Now, AI means you're going to need to ultrasound the mare (in my area this runs somewhere around $250 every US... NOT including the transport and/or board I may need to use until the mare is ready to be bred). Let's say it takes you 2 tries to get this - $500

After the insemination (or live cover breeding for that matter) you need another ultrasound for the mare - to make sure she's taken, the fetus is where it should be, there are no other problems etc.)... another $250 here

You have the feed and care the mare needs during gestation - probably varies depending on your set up and how much feed costs in your area. Runs me around $1200 a year for the feed, with vet costs/deworming/farrier care we'll say $2000 just for easy numbers - it's not really highballing either.

You may or may not choose to do an ultrasound later on in gestation - to check and make sure things are OK. $250.

As the mare gets ready to foal - we're going to hope that everything goes well, and you don't have any vet bills from the actual foaling... but they happen, and they can be VERY expensive. (just for argument's sake... this number is a variable every breeding... and lets not forget you can lose the mare and/or the foal at this point)

If we add all this up : $4000 .... which could be a conservative number or a high one depending on where you live, how much property you own, and if there were any complications anywhere along the way.

So that's $4000 to get the foal on the ground... as it gets older and you put time and money into care and training that goes up.

I've seen a number of breeders, of quality stock (let's face it a foal which isn't quality isn't going to sell for $4000 + at weaning) who offer foals for around this price... so you CAN find them, and still not be spending any more money than you might if you bred your own.

(This isn't me saying that you shouldn't breed your own quality stock... just pointing out that it really isn't "cheaper" most of the time to do so... or at least not signifigantly cheaper when you take in consideration the risks and possible bills you COULD get hit with if things go wrong)
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post #32 of 45 Old 07-05-2010, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by draftrider View Post
I breed Golden Retrievers, rabbits, poultry, goats, sheep and hogs.
Oh we should compare notes. I have a Golden that I put 3 titles on by a year old. Love the breed. Have been toying with the idea of breeding her but just not sure. Probably b/c I would be too picking about where the pups go and I would end up with all of them. HMM maybe not a bad Idea. Love my Goldens. I also have a Corgi who has done well in the show ring. Yet to breed her either.

I so understand where you are coming from and I agree that is most cases these rules are good. However just like a few of your examples perhaps they should be more of a guideline then a set and fast rule.

-I'm so busy... I don't know if I found a rope or lost my horse.
-An Armed Man is a Citizen an unarmed man is a subject.
-Where ever free speech is stifled Tyranny will reign.
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post #33 of 45 Old 07-05-2010, 12:41 PM
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LOL... sorry draftrider... I misunderstood your post entirely... it was before my morning coffee - apologies!
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post #34 of 45 Old 07-05-2010, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastUnicorn View Post

I don't totally agree with reiner's statement that it's "Cheaper" to breed a foal than buy one.

Here's some math :

Say you do AI to a quality stud... I'll go with a stud fee of about $1000 (because if you want a performance horse, the sires usually come with a stud fee around that mark... unless you're breeding to unknown stallions or young studs with no show career yet, either would be a "risk" )

Now, AI means you're going to need to ultrasound the mare (in my area this runs somewhere around $250 every US... NOT including the transport and/or board I may need to use until the mare is ready to be bred). Let's say it takes you 2 tries to get this - $500

After the insemination (or live cover breeding for that matter) you need another ultrasound for the mare - to make sure she's taken, the fetus is where it should be, there are no other problems etc.)... another $250 here

You have the feed and care the mare needs during gestation - probably varies depending on your set up and how much feed costs in your area. Runs me around $1200 a year for the feed, with vet costs/deworming/farrier care we'll say $2000 just for easy numbers - it's not really highballing either.

You may or may not choose to do an ultrasound later on in gestation - to check and make sure things are OK. $250.

As the mare gets ready to foal - we're going to hope that everything goes well, and you don't have any vet bills from the actual foaling... but they happen, and they can be VERY expensive. (just for argument's sake... this number is a variable every breeding... and lets not forget you can lose the mare and/or the foal at this point)

If we add all this up : $4000 .... which could be a conservative number or a high one depending on where you live, how much property you own, and if there were any complications anywhere along the way.

So that's $4000 to get the foal on the ground... as it gets older and you put time and money into care and training that goes up.

I've seen a number of breeders, of quality stock (let's face it a foal which isn't quality isn't going to sell for $4000 + at weaning) who offer foals for around this price... so you CAN find them, and still not be spending any more money than you might if you bred your own.

(This isn't me saying that you shouldn't breed your own quality stock... just pointing out that it really isn't "cheaper" most of the time to do so... or at least not signifigantly cheaper when you take in consideration the risks and possible bills you COULD get hit with if things go wrong)
The thing is while that might be true for some it is not for me.

For me it brakes down to something like this.

Average stud fee is about $5K. I normally get a very very good brake on stud fees. Have yet to pay full price for one.

Shipped semen runs on average $200-$250.
I do all my own AI work so no vet needed. They come once check the mare so they can legally give me what I need and then I have them back at 18 days to ultra sound the mare to check for twins. Will check again if the vet thinks it is needed or the mare has a history we need to keep an eye on.

So even if I have $8K into that foal. On average I get $25K+ for a foal. If I keep them until they are yearlings that price goes up to over $35K+.

So basically there is no way I can get a foal that is the quality of the one I can put on the ground for less then $10K

-I'm so busy... I don't know if I found a rope or lost my horse.
-An Armed Man is a Citizen an unarmed man is a subject.
-Where ever free speech is stifled Tyranny will reign.
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post #35 of 45 Old 07-05-2010, 05:48 PM
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reiner - My post is more about the "average" person who breeds than the high end breeder. I understand that it IS financially better for you to breed than buy... your situation isn't what I'd consider "normal" (at least in my area it sure isn't!)

When you say you sell for $25,000 per foal (on average)... What do the parents have to have achieved to be worth that much money? (my point is only that most people do not own horses that are worth $25,000, mature and broke to ride, let alone worth $25k as a weanling. )

What I'm saying is, for most people, to breed their mare it's not financially cheaper than buying a foal which is bred for what they want it to do. I think it's important that people realize this BEFORE they decide to breed their horse, it might save a few unwanted horses from being born.
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post #36 of 45 Old 07-05-2010, 06:19 PM
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Everyone should think before they breed. People who breed horses just b/c they want a foal or a part of their mare is one aspect of the problem. So are the people who think their horse is a peeeeerty color or their horse is a high foundation % and so on. There needs to be more then just these things.

Why do I get good prices for my foals? I start with very well bred well conformed mare and then I PROVE them though competition in which they are bred and what I am breeding for. This give an out side independent source that shows what that horse can do. It can be independently verified.

Would not matter what I was breeding for. I find this part very important. Takes the barn blindness out of the equation.

-I'm so busy... I don't know if I found a rope or lost my horse.
-An Armed Man is a Citizen an unarmed man is a subject.
-Where ever free speech is stifled Tyranny will reign.
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post #37 of 45 Old 07-05-2010, 09:20 PM Thread Starter
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I don't compete with my mare though. I use her for moving and sorting cows, she is an awesome cutter. She packs my butt on trails, gives my nieces rides around the pasture with a halter and leadrope. If I need to check fences I ride her out. I've shot deer off her and she's hauled them back for me. One time we had a 7 day blizzard, and we ran out of my mom's medicine- (she is a diabetic). I couldn't get out with the truck on the 4 miles of township roads, so when the storm stopped, I rode Belle to town. I can take her out and do a barrel pattern, hitch her to my Meadowbrook cart, and come home and work cows. She really is an extremely versatile working quarter horse, which I wish MORE quarter horses were. I bet you that the vast majority of halter bred horses couldn't handle cattle, or running on hard terrain.

As far as color- who cares? My horse is a bay, I like bays, sorrels, blacks- I don't care what color they are. The best color on a horse is "fat". =)

Reiner I would love to see your website or more about your horses, you don't have any for display in your "stable" on here and I'd love to see them.

I raise Golden Retrievers for assistance dogs actually- I just started showing a bit with my male. He is doing good, but prefers doing Dock Dog competitions. Most of my dogs are NOT show dogs, they are working dogs. There is a difference! =)

Spent a whole hour today laying in a pasture, waiting for a sparkling vampire to show up. Alas, I woke up and looked over, only to find a mound of horse crap. Sigh.
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post #38 of 45 Old 07-05-2010, 09:20 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastUnicorn View Post
LOL... sorry draftrider... I misunderstood your post entirely... it was before my morning coffee - apologies!
No worries!!!!

Spent a whole hour today laying in a pasture, waiting for a sparkling vampire to show up. Alas, I woke up and looked over, only to find a mound of horse crap. Sigh.
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post #39 of 45 Old 07-05-2010, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by draftrider View Post
I don't compete with my mare though. I use her for moving and sorting cows, she is an awesome cutter. She packs my butt on trails, gives my nieces rides around the pasture with a halter and leadrope. If I need to check fences I ride her out. I've shot deer off her and she's hauled them back for me. One time we had a 7 day blizzard, and we ran out of my mom's medicine- (she is a diabetic). I couldn't get out with the truck on the 4 miles of township roads, so when the storm stopped, I rode Belle to town. I can take her out and do a barrel pattern, hitch her to my Meadowbrook cart, and come home and work cows. She really is an extremely versatile working quarter horse, which I wish MORE quarter horses were. I bet you that the vast majority of halter bred horses couldn't handle cattle, or running on hard terrain.

This is a lot like my stallion. He is a jack of all and really not a master of any. He does well with anything you ask of him. Was one of the last all around bred horses back in the early 90's before you really started seeing horses that are more line bred for one type event. Good using horses that anyone can ride.

As far as color- who cares? My horse is a bay, I like bays, sorrels, blacks- I don't care what color they are. The best color on a horse is "fat". =)

I have to say I agree with this 110%. I have sorrels, bay, red duns, duns.


Reiner I would love to see your website or more about your horses, you don't have any for display in your "stable" on here and I'd love to see them.

I raise Golden Retrievers for assistance dogs actually- I just started showing a bit with my male. He is doing good, but prefers doing Dock Dog competitions. Most of my dogs are NOT show dogs, they are working dogs. There is a difference! =)
My Golden is hunt bred. Her titles are in Obedience and rally and I do nursing home visits with her. She loves it. She is the only dog I know who gets an allowance for the work she does. Very handy to have around

This is what she was doing at 6 months.


This is her working.


She works for toys as you can see.

This is what she does after she is done working.

-I'm so busy... I don't know if I found a rope or lost my horse.
-An Armed Man is a Citizen an unarmed man is a subject.
-Where ever free speech is stifled Tyranny will reign.
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post #40 of 45 Old 07-05-2010, 09:48 PM
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This is Cassie.






Gracie






Mia. she is not a reiner but can not get my self to sell her. She is by Te and just one of those horses you love to have around.


-I'm so busy... I don't know if I found a rope or lost my horse.
-An Armed Man is a Citizen an unarmed man is a subject.
-Where ever free speech is stifled Tyranny will reign.
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