Picking a HUS AQHA stud to breed with an HYPP N/H mare - Page 10
   

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Picking a HUS AQHA stud to breed with an HYPP N/H mare

This is a discussion on Picking a HUS AQHA stud to breed with an HYPP N/H mare within the Horse Breeding forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category
  • Hypp pedigree tracing 1985
  • Hypp smart little lena

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    11-29-2011, 01:23 PM
  #91
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faceman    
You and I agree on most things, but as you know we disagree on this issue, and have for many years.

It's OK to disagree, and I respect your opinion. However where you justify the use of breeding a HERDA carrier based upon its performance and your knowledge not to breed it to another carrier, I view things differently. As long as the playing field is level, competition is fair, and based upon the best horse, best, training, and best riding. If there were no HERDA carriers competing, the playing field would still be level. Same with HYPP and halter. Same with racing Thoroughbreds. Competition should be based upon equal footing and a level playing field - not upon whether a particular horse is bulked up or performs better due to a negative genetic issue that can be passed on.

If no HERDA carriers were permitted to compete, the competitive nature of the discipline would not be compromised - there would just be a particular class of horses eliminated. Same with halter - if HYPP H/H and N/H horses were not permitted to compete, the discipline would be just as competitive - moreso, actually. Same with Thoroughbreds. If the poorly bred horses with unsound feet, joints, and bones, were not permitted to compete, breeding practices would change but races would be just as exciting, albeit perhaps a couple tenths of a second slower.

Competition should be a judge of horse, trainer, and rider. The best horse trained the best and ridden the best, should win. If that horse has a genetic fault, it cannot by definition, at least in my opinion, be the best horse.

Just a different way of looking at things...
The problem is at this point eliminating carriers would eliminate a lot of horses and severely limit the gene pool. I personally am not ready to cut off my nose to spite my face on this one. Would it limit the playing field and keep things level or would it set back the quality of animals 30 years? Again as long as the animal is not afflicted there is little harm to anything. Again this is one more thing that I look at when I am looking at a breeding animal. I gelded and sold a very nice well bred finished reiner b/c he was a carrier. As nice as he was he was not nice enough to breed with with being a HERDA carrier. However lets say one of my mares was a carrier. Not but lets say they are. They are very well bred very well proven mares so yes I would use them. I have little doubt that my Poco mare was a carrier. I would have little hesitation of using her again if it was possible. Her quality and that of her foals out way the chance that one of her foals might be a carrier. Again this is just one thing that would be added to the equation and one more thing I would have to look at when picking a stallion for the mare.
     
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    11-29-2011, 01:24 PM
  #92
Super Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by NdAppy    
Nice of you to assume that I haven't been following this thread.

I have read all of your posts and all of the other posts. YOUR posts keep pointing fingers at the AQHA and the AQHA alone IMPO. Which is WRONG. At this point in the game with HYPP it isn't solely up to the AQHA. ApHC, APHA and any other registry that has AQHA blood mixed in is just as responsible to inform people about HYPP as they are to to take steps to eradicate this gentic disease.
You know what. I can't even respond to you anymore because of the close-minded though process that is going into your accusations. I've been discussing AQHA because Impressive is a registered AQHA and HYPP traces directly to him. AQHA is doing something about the issue. AQHA is making an effort to change the registration process, which in turn will effect ones efforts to breed horses that may be carriers of the gene.

Yes, many other breed associations are effected such as Palamino, Buckskin, Appaloosa, Paint, Arab, etc. I am not a member of those associations and I don't follow their registration rules, therefore I can not speak to them. Although I do recall reading somewhere that the Palomino association had some changes regarding HYPP.

Just because I am highlighting AQHA in this conversation beacause Impressive happened to be a registered Quarter horse does not mean I am pointing fingers. That is my issue with your comments. The phrase "pointing fingers" is a wrong. It's incorrect. It's not accurate. It's accusatory. It's irritating.
     
    11-29-2011, 01:31 PM
  #93
Trained
Perhaps some of the people here who belong to some of the other organizations could suggest to them (since they are members) that they should do some education. Just an idea. The AQHA does not function in a vacuum. They can only do what they do, and cannot control what the other registries do. Only the board and membership of THOSE REGISTRIES can control that. So, Nd APPY, if you are a member of one of them, perhaps you need to get involved and used your energies constructively. Just a thought. Attacking people here and picking apart their posts line by line does nothing to help the issue.
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    11-29-2011, 01:32 PM
  #94
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitten_Val    
Why others may want? Not a debate here, but I'm really curious what would be pros of doing it. Personally I'd be afraid to even own one, much less to breed one. Just too much of risk (plus watching those attacks even on video is simply hard for me).
I'm not sure there are any "pros" to it outside of halter. Part of the problem is aside from the bulk which has made H/H and N/H horses excel in halter, Impressive bred horses have an unbelievable performance record in many different disciplines. Impressive was a great horse and a great and prepotent stallion far beyond halter and the HYPP issue. So what we have is a bloodline that, other than HYPP, is very desireable in many disciplines. If Impressive had never had HYPP to begin with, the bloodline would still be one of the greatest modern QH bloodlines. With that in mind, there are such a large percentage of Impressive bred horses that are N/H, that many people simply don't care about the N/H as long as they get a great performing horse. No problem with that in and of itself, but the problem comes of course when those horses are bred.

Honestly, it is a shame the HYPP issue has been addressed so poorly. It has tainted a great bloodline when it didn't have to. If HYPP had been addressed properly upon discovery in 1985, which it of course was not, it would be a non issue today among registered stock, and we would have a great bloodline available without it being clouded. As you have seen examples of here, many people avoid Impressive lines even when they are N/N, which is a shame. That is no different than avoiding Zantanon/Poco Bueno lines because of HERDA if they are not carriers...
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    11-29-2011, 01:33 PM
  #95
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitten_Val    
Why others may want? Not a debate here, but I'm really curious what would be pros of doing it. Personally I'd be afraid to even own one, much less to breed one. Just too much of risk (plus watching those attacks even on video is simply hard for me).

Whether you register or not the grade horse still may have it. You can't go around it really.
I have a friend here locally who breeds halter horses. She has some very very nice ones that win at the highest level in the AQHA. They also do quite well under saddle.

Anyway back when the rules changed and the thought back then that they would also not register N/H horses as they are still doing now she decided to breed her mares who where N/H and try and get a replacement for them that where of the same quality or better and also N/N. She did and she did end up with N/N replacements for most but not all. It was not that she wanted a N/H horse but being she had has many in the past and she had no problem properly caring for them it was not a huge issue in trying to get one that was not. Again is was not a money thing for her it was a quality thing. If she could have gotten the quality with out the HyPP she would have been very very happy. However it takes time to get the quality and eliminate the HyPP. Again for every positive there is also a negative one. So while it would be great to no longer have any genetic defects that is never going to happen. Every time you eliminate one there will be a mutation and you will get anouther.

Again it comes down to responsible breeding. Is the quality of the animal worth the risk of getting a carrier? That is what it must come down to. If you can get the exact same quality and diversity with out using a carrier then do so. However that in a lot of cases is going to be hard and will in the end cause more problems then what you are trying to eliminate.
     
    11-29-2011, 01:35 PM
  #96
Trained
*snort* Farmpony, I am no where near being closed minded on this. I stand behind all my statements in regards to how your posts read.

As to the reading comprehension... I think you need to o back and read my original post on the AQHA part.

I wasn't specifically pointing to YOU in my original post. You were the one who had the tantrum over me pointing out that AQHA isn't the only one to blame in the registries.
     
    11-29-2011, 01:37 PM
  #97
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by franknbeans    
Perhaps some of the people here who belong to some of the other organizations could suggest to them (since they are members) that they should do some education. Just an idea. The AQHA does not function in a vacuum. They can only do what they do, and cannot control what the other registries do. Only the board and membership of THOSE REGISTRIES can control that. So, Nd APPY, if you are a member of one of them, perhaps you need to get involved and used your energies constructively. Just a thought. Attacking people here and picking apart their posts line by line does nothing to help the issue.
Easier said than done. The ApHC only cares about registrations/revenue, which they clearly demonstrate in all their registration policies. Many of us have fought with ApHC for many years on this and other registration issues. It is a brick wall...if there is a registration or buck in it, that is the direction ApHC goes. They have no interest whatsoever in the breed...in actual fact, their registration policies have virtually destroyed the breed. Please don't intimate that we Appy owners have not tried to effect change. Many of us have fought the hard battle for many years - just as many AQHA people have fought the battle with their registry...
     
    11-29-2011, 01:47 PM
  #98
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faceman    
I'm not sure there are any "pros" to it outside of halter. Part of the problem is aside from the bulk which has made H/H and N/H horses excel in halter, Impressive bred horses have an unbelievable performance record in many different disciplines. Impressive was a great horse and a great and prepotent stallion far beyond halter and the HYPP issue. So what we have is a bloodline that, other than HYPP, is very desireable in many disciplines. If Impressive had never had HYPP to begin with, the bloodline would still be one of the greatest modern QH bloodlines. With that in mind, there are such a large percentage of Impressive bred horses that are N/H, that many people simply don't care about the N/H as long as they get a great performing horse. No problem with that in and of itself, but the problem comes of course when those horses are bred.

Honestly, it is a shame the HYPP issue has been addressed so poorly. It has tainted a great bloodline when it didn't have to. If HYPP had been addressed properly upon discovery in 1985, which it of course was not, it would be a non issue today among registered stock, and we would have a great bloodline available without it being clouded. As you have seen examples of here, many people avoid Impressive lines even when they are N/N, which is a shame. That is no different than avoiding Zantanon/Poco Bueno lines because of HERDA if they are not carriers...
You have hit on my point to all of this. Impressive is not only for halter. There are many great performance horses that trace to him. Now lest say AQHA did something back in the 80's although there was not a test until the 90's so it would have been hard to do so. Anyway. Lets say that even when the test came out and at that point there where no longer any N/H or H/H horses allowed to breed or be registered. What would have happen to that line? Even what would have happen to the AQHA as a whole? Yes you could argue that if they are not there there will be others come up that there is still a level playing field but what about all the great N/N horses that came from the N/H horses? They would not exist now and then where would you be?

Same with HERDA. Lets say we ( I use that as all inclusive we) knew about HERDA back 30 years ago or so. Lets say that Poco Lena was never allowed to breed b/c she was a carrier? Lets say that Doc O'Lena never existed then there would be no Smart Little Lena. Ok find but what about all the Doc O'Lena and Smart Little Lena get who are not carriers? They would not exist either. SO are we really doing a good thing or not?
     
    11-29-2011, 01:49 PM
  #99
Banned
But you can keep the lines with out the disease.
Like Face pointed out. There are lots of lovely Impressive horses out there that are N/N.

There is just no reason to continue to breed horses with something this horrible. To win in the show ring is not enough of a reason if you ask me.
     
    11-29-2011, 02:33 PM
  #100
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faceman    
Easier said than done. The ApHC only cares about registrations/revenue, which they clearly demonstrate in all their registration policies. Many of us have fought with ApHC for many years on this and other registration issues. It is a brick wall...if there is a registration or buck in it, that is the direction ApHC goes. They have no interest whatsoever in the breed...in actual fact, their registration policies have virtually destroyed the breed. Please don't intimate that we Appy owners have not tried to effect change. Many of us have fought the hard battle for many years - just as many AQHA people have fought the battle with their registry...
Your registry is just one of many. There are many registered breeds that approve and register QH crosses. Change has to start somewhere, and perhaps the ApHC would get the idea it its "peers" made changes.....that would increase the pressure a bit. I understand your frustration, but people have to keep this issue out in the open, IMO.

I guess ND Appy continues to waste good energy. **shrug**
     

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