Picking Stallions - The Horse Forum
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post #1 of 30 Old 02-01-2014, 08:50 PM Thread Starter
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Picking Stallions

My plans to have a small breeding operation are starting to get on track

I have been offered an embryo out of this mare:

I have a better photo but it is not loading at the moment - Will try again later!

She is a cremello ASH - 3yo this year and is bred to the nines. She is broken in and has been to a couple shows and has done well, and will be going to the nationals in a couple months. I have been following her since a foal and was planning on purchasing her but owner has decided not to sell - Hence the embryo. In owners opinion she is in the top 1-2% of horses she has sat on and she has broken 100's of them.

I am hoping to breed a foal that will be the cornerstone of my future breeding plans. I want to breed horses that are talented in cattle work (Campdrafting and team penning mainly) but are pretty enough to show and really good natured. Colour will be a huge bonus - there isn't a great deal of colour in the breed. I have been looking out for a double dilute I liked enough to use to introduce some colour but so far there has been nothing, until her. As far as I know she is the ONLY working bred double dilute ASH in existence. (Well except for a colt born a few days ago but he is part QH as well). I would prefer a colt to keep and use over a select few mares of my own and perhaps stand to outside stud. If I kept a colt I would send him to a professional to be broken in and campaigned. I would still be happy with a mare though.

So, I have been looking at stallions and have a few that I am tossing up. I really want to choose the right one be cause if the foal is a colt I REALLY want it to be quality enough to keep a colt - It will be a 'wasted' breeding as such if I end up with a gelding because it isn't the quality I want. I bred a colt this year who will be gelded and kept as a riding horse for me so I have no use for another gelding as my goals lie in breeding.

So here are the boys! All are registered ASH and well bred. The links go to pages with info and videos.

1. Horses | Australia | Campdraft | Cutting | Challenge - Select Sires - Stallion-Soda Justice-Soda Justice

At the moment this guy is my top choice. I have seen him in person working cattle and he is a very impressive boy with a lot of presence. He is a big powerful horse who moves well. He is well known in the working world as one of the top stallions (Though not the absolute top) but doesn't have the market saturated with his progeny. There are no coloured sire sons registered. There are a lot of his progeny I like, but there are also a few I don't like (Obviously mares come into the equation!). He carries chestnut so 50/50 Palomino/Buckskin baby. I particularly love his build, he is very uphill with a great neck set which isn't let down by his hind.

2. Horses | Australia | Campdraft | Cutting | Challenge - Select Sires - Stallion-Wallabah Excel-Wallabah Excel

This guy is near me at home and I have seen him at drafts I have attended. He is ridden by the whole family. He is a little lower set in the neck than the above boy, but he comes together well under saddle. He is a buckskin so a chance of a double dilute - which would be awesome, except if it isn't colt quality because I have zero use for a DD gelding and it would be harder to sell as most ASH people dislike them. For breeding though would be great. So I can't decide with him wether it is worth the risk. He has some recent progeny that I really like. He is a bit younger and not as well promoted so no sire sons on the market yet.

3. Horses | Australia | Campdraft | Cutting | Challenge - Select Sires - Stallion-Hazelwood Conman-Hazelwood Conman

This guy is one of the 2 absolute best drafting sires going at the moment. They are both leagues ahead of anyone else in regards to winnings and prizemoney. A daughter of his just won the biggest draft in the country, the gold cup. So the ability and the prepotency is there. However because they are so well known there is a LOT of them on the market. Stud fee is a lot higher. There are already a handful of sire sons out there. He is a really well bodied horse but he is a bit coarse in the head. His progeny have the ability but in regards to looks for showing they can be hit and miss.

4. Horses | Australia | Campdraft | Cutting | Challenge - Select Sires - Stallion-Bonlac Gigolo-Bonlac Gigolo

This guy is also close to me and is owned by a friend of a friend. I have ridden two fillies by him and liked them both, one is amazing and everything I would want in a horse, the other is lovely as well just not my type (A bit more QH in build). Both have great temperaments. He is doing REALLY well at the moment competing, just won the champion of champions draft at Warwick as well as a bunch of other stuff. Heaps of natural ability. There have been a couple of progeny that aren't so nice as well. The friend who I trust has said he is one to watch. He runs really well on his cattle, really settled and calm which I love.

So these are my top choices at the moment! All are quality animals who are winning in the draft arena and have successful progeny.

I would love any opinions on which ones catch your eye or would suit the mare better.

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post #2 of 30 Old 02-01-2014, 09:21 PM
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If the foal does not fit your criteria to be a stud what will you do with it? Will it be sold and will there be a market for the foal? I ask because you have a very clear and very specific ideal. That is awesome, but horses are murphy's law in action so what is your plan if all falls to poop.

You have an embryo and I am wondering how that works. Would it be using a surrogate like an embryo transfer situation? What if the embryo aborts and is not viable? Do you have a live foal guarantee from the mare owner? These are things I am curious about because most of the embryo transfer stuff I have seen done was by one single owner.

That said, conformation shots over video. I am not familiar with the breed so assessing the best stud for the mare is hard particularly with the angle of the photos of the mare. Which stud is older? I ask because I put a lot of value in a horse that can stand the test of time. I don't see much merit in over breeding horses that are amazing as 2 or 3 year olds and then don't produce or end up with serious soundness issues as 9-10 year olds. That is a personal thing and not something others necessarily agree with.
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post #3 of 30 Old 02-01-2014, 09:41 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for your reply :)

If it isn't breeding quality then I will keep it and break it in and most likely then sell it. Even if not breeding quality it should be quiet and trainable (From these bloodlines) and will be coloured, as well as bred to the nines for working ability - So yes, I do believe there would be a good market for it regardless. There really is a lack of quality working bred coloured pure ASH. I also don't really believe in selling young horses unbroken if you aren't sure of the home. I would rather see them broken in, so you have a real idea of their personality and talents, and they have a much better chance at landing on their feet in the future.

I'm sorry about the photo of the mare - I have a good side on shot of her but my computer keeps freezing when I try to upload it. I'll keep trying today and see if I can get it up. I'll have a look for some conformation shots of the boys too.

In regards to the embryo - Yes will be going into a recip mare. We haven't talked details yet but I am not expecting a live foal guarantee - I will insure the recip mare and unborn foal to cover some situations but if it doesn't come off that will be my loss. I will be expecting some kind of contract to be drawn up when it gets closer.

1. Will be 13 this year.
2. Will be 11 this year.
3. Will be 15 this year.
4. Will be 12 this year.

So all a similar age - All are competing heavily so soundness should be pretty good. None have had injuries that I know off.

Off to find some better confo shots!

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post #4 of 30 Old 02-01-2014, 09:52 PM Thread Starter
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1. http://www.landmark-classic.com.au/s...%20justice.pdf

Conformation shot of him in this add. Couldn't find a bigger version of it sorry!


Best I could find of him.


4. Not really any confo shots out there of this guy. This is the best I could find.

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post #5 of 30 Old 02-01-2014, 10:01 PM Thread Starter
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Finally! Sorry about the crappy quality but here is a better shot of the mare.

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post #6 of 30 Old 02-01-2014, 11:11 PM
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Just going on the pictures myself since I know nothing about ASH bloodlines. I'll defer to your better judgement there .

BTW, great to see you back!! Missed seeing you around here .

Anyway, looking at the mare, I'd probably knock 2 and 3 out right now.

2 because he's awfully long through the body and appears very front-heavy. His coloring is nice, but with the downhill build, long body, and heavy front end, I can imagine that any progeny that looked like him would take a lot of work to keep them working correctly.

3 because he's slightly sickle hocked...and so is the mare. Plus, like you said, his head is very coarse. Not such a bad thing on a working horse, but for showing....you can do better.

4, I'm not really sure about him. It always bothers me when stallion owners don't have at least 1 decent conformational picture of their studs. Makes me wonder if they aren't trying to hide something. Probably they aren't, but it always sends up red flags in my head. Just based on the pictures that I have seen of him, like that one and the ones of him on cattle, there's something about him I don't really like. Only problem is I can't really put my finger on it.

As it stands right now, I agree with you that 1 is likely your best bet. He's got a nice short back and his shoulder has better angle than the mare so it's unlikely you'll end up with something straighter than she is.

I'd be really interested to see a foal out of that pairing, I think they match up well.
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post #7 of 30 Old 02-01-2014, 11:22 PM Thread Starter
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I think it is just a case of his owner isn't really into the promotion side of things. Hence he has hardly been advertised and the shots they use aren't great. Seeing him in real life he is a real nice horse, a real workhorse. One of his fillies I have ridden is 100% what I am after - A real refined typey filly who is feminine, good movement with great extension, and should be real handy on cattle. But again that is half the mare too. But If I could end up with something like her I would be very happy. The other I have ridden is a bit heavier and shorter. But still nice. Should be a good cow horse her owner reckons. The downside to him is I don't think he has ever done any showing, whereas the first one has done a heap and been successful.

The big drawcard for the first one is that he has just done so much, and been successful at all of it. Showing, challenges, cutting, drafting. The others are more just drafting.

Smrobs i'll PM you with some more thoughts :)
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post #8 of 30 Old 02-02-2014, 12:03 AM
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I agree with smrobs. #1 IMO is the best cross conformation wise.

#2 Is a pretty color, but nothing about him to me sticks out in a good way. I think he is very long. Long back. Neck is long and ties in too low. I'm just not impressed. Yet I know nothing of ASH...so maybe this is desireable?

also, what is "camp-drafting"? Sounds intriging...
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post #9 of 30 Old 02-02-2014, 12:06 AM
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CLa, campdrafting is (at least it appears to me) very similar to working cow horse. I love watching videos of it. Such precision and athletic ability.

It's like running barrels with cows LOL.
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post #10 of 30 Old 02-02-2014, 01:26 PM
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I would get a contract together with a life foal clause. Embryo transfer can take a few tries to "stick" and it can be expensive. If you are going to spend what you are probably going to spend on stud fees, recip. mare, mare care, ultrasound etc. than you want to make sure your investment is viable. It would stink to have an embryo not take and than be out of luck completely.

That said, I like the first stud as I think he is a "whole package" but if you really like number fours offspring that is a huge selling point.
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