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Stallions - Herda Carriers

57K views 65 replies 20 participants last post by  Super Nova 
#1 ·
A little rant. I have a 5 page list of known HERDA carriers. There are some top cutting/reining horse names on the list and I just wish that the AQHA would not allow stallions that are known carriers to be included in the stallion registry anymore. Carrier mares are bad enough, but the big time stallions produce hundreds of foals!!!! That's a flood of possible HERDA carriers being born every year. Millions of dollars are needed to train, show and promote an elite performing stallion so I understand wanting to reap the rewards, but couldn't the top producers work with the N/N stallions? There are some really good N/N stallions out there so I don't see the need to breed more HERDA carriers at this point. At the very least, I think that stallion owners should be required to state the HERDA status of their stallion in plain words instead of just saying "HERDA: Live Foal Guarantee". It should be very clear that the stallion is a carrier. Some folks might disagree.

Okay, rant over.
 
#3 ·
I also agree, with any of the genetic diseases. There are plenty of good horses out there without furthering a disease for the sake of the all mighty dollar.

I have Poco Bueno bred horses myself, my grandfather started the farm with a son of Poco Dell over 50 years ago. I've had all of mine tested and they are all negative, had they been carriers, there's not a chance I'd consider using them for breeding stock. It's just irresponsible.

I've seen firsthand what herda can do to a horse and it's gruesome. I don't understand wanting to take that chance.
 
#4 ·
I agree with the above posters that breeding animals with genetic disorders is irresponsible. I did not, however know what HERDA was, so I looked it up... and I have to say that WOW, that's horrible! Why in the world would you knowingly risk inflicting that on an innocent??? Even knowingly producing a carrier just serves to perpetuate the suffering on a future generation....


"The expected lifespan of an affected horse is 2–4 years. There is currently no cure for this disease. To prevent it from occurring, the only solution is not to breed horses who both carry the HERDA allele."
Hereditary equine regional dermal asthenia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
#5 ·
I found this very interesting:

Breedings of carrier horses have a 25% chance of producing an affected foal.

Breedings between normal and carrier horses will not produce a HERDA foal although 50% of the foals are expected to be carriers.

So if I undertsand this correctly, if the horse is a carrier then 25% of it's offspring have a chance of being affected. It doesn't say what percent would be a carrier (do we assume all?)

Then if you breed a carrier to a normal horse you positively will not get a HERDA affected foal yet you run the risk of having a carrier.

So... In a perfect world I would assume the "fix" would be to dis-allow any breedings of a HERDA carrier or only allow it to breed to a "normal" horse but then sterilize the offspring...?

I know, that's in a perfect world. I think money is what drives the breeding of these animals...Same with any other genetic defect such as HYPP, SCID, JEB, OLWFS, and GBED to name a few....
 
#12 · (Edited)
So if I undertsand this correctly, if the horse is a carrier then 25% of it's offspring have a chance of being affected. It doesn't say what percent would be a carrier (do we assume all?)

Then if you breed a carrier to a normal horse you positively will not get a HERDA affected foal yet you run the risk of having a carrier.

So... In a perfect world I would assume the "fix" would be to dis-allow any breedings of a HERDA carrier or only allow it to breed to a "normal" horse but then sterilize the offspring...?
I'm not sure I understand your question.

Breeding non carrier to non carrier results in 100% "clear".

Breeding carrier to non carrier results in 50% carriers and 50% "clear".

Breeding carrier to carrier results in 25% afflicted, 50% carrier, and 25% "clear".


ETA: As most people know, I am opposed to breeding HERDA carriers...
 
#9 ·
It would be great if you could post a link of all those stallions to make others on this forum aware of the horses that carry HERDA.
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The original link to the list page is dead because stallion owners complained. There are a lot of breeders who don't care about standing HERDA carrying stallions. Some clearly state the status of their stallions while others are vague or don't even mention it. To them, it is a manageable disease. To folks like myself, it is irresponsible. You could try doing a google search. Somebody might have stashed the list away somewhere else. At any rate, it is well known that horses with Poco Bueno in their lineage should be checked. Horses with Zantanon or his son, 'King' should be checked for GBED which is still out there and being propagated by stallions with well known pedigrees.

If you have a horse that you want to check for the possibility of HERDA, you can message me and I'll check my list. I don't want to cause any troubles for this forum.
Do you have a way to scan it and attatch it? that would be alot less trouble for you than looking up a bunch of us.
Thanks
 
#7 ·
The original link to the list page is dead because stallion owners complained. There are a lot of breeders who don't care about standing HERDA carrying stallions. Some clearly state the status of their stallions while others are vague or don't even mention it. To them, it is a manageable disease. To folks like myself, it is irresponsible. You could try doing a google search. Somebody might have stashed the list away somewhere else. At any rate, it is well known that horses with Poco Bueno in their lineage should be checked. Horses with Zantanon or his son, 'King' should be checked for GBED which is still out there and being propagated by stallions with well known pedigrees.

If you have a horse that you want to check for the possibility of HERDA, you can message me and I'll check my list. I don't want to cause any troubles for this forum.
 
#8 ·
To eliminate all HERDA carrier stallions and mares from the gene pool is an unrealistic expectation. As you've noted, many of the elite stallions in the AQHA and APHA in all disciplines, not just cutting and reining, are carriers. To eliminate them isn't in the best interest of the breed. What the breeds need to do is mandate HERDA testing on every horse that traces to Poco Bueno just as they do for requiring HYPP testing for Impressive horses. Mare owners need to be able to make the best decision for the resulting foal. Resulting foals need to be tested and their status clearing marked on their papers. If the breeders start taking it in the shorts and bare the finacial loss of afflicted foals maybe a little more care in the selection process will take place.

If a stallion owner is gving a HERDA live foal guarantee, they are saying in so many words that the stallion is a carrier. Unfortunately, the foal will appear normal for the most part until they are started undersaddle. Only then will the status of the horse be tested and revealed. At that point, the guarantee probably isn't going to be honored.
 
#15 · (Edited)
NdAppy - Just to let you know, I read your response as "You are stupid". T

Anyway,
I have a basic understanding of genetics but hold no degrees in science or biology.

This is a qoute from the below site:

For horse breeders, identification of carriers is critical for the selection of mating pairs. Breedings of carrier horses have a 25% chance of producing an affected foal. Breedings between normal and carrier horses will not produce a HERDA foal although 50% of the foals are expected to be carriers.

Horse HERDA

This website below is the one that has me confused. It states that a carrier and a non carrier will give you 50% carrier, 25% afflicted, and 25% clean. The way they broke it out it appears that the 25 percent afflicted is in it's own group. Does that mean they are afflicted but not carriers?

Of course this site may be a bad reference because it shows if you take a carrier and breed it to a non-carrier then you get 100% carriers but that's not true.

http://ckmobileequine.ca/articles.html
 
#16 ·
Never said you were stupid nor was that implied in my post.

Afflicted horses are carriers. They have two copies of the HERDA gene where carrier (non afflicted carriers) only have one.

The math on that site is exactly the same as what Face stated. Carrier to carrier is 25% clear, 50% carrier, and 25% afflicted. Always will be.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Assuming this is what you are talking about here -


The Punnett squares are correct. The one on the right, if that is what has you confused, is afflicted (horses with two copies) bred to a non-carrier. That will give you 100% carriers of the disease.

ETA their little thing at the top doesn't match their squares. NH and HH are actually used in reference to HYPP. HERDA is N/HRD or HRD/HRD.
 
#20 ·
Assuming this is what you are talking about here -


The Punnett squares are correct. The one on the right, if that is what has you confused, is afflicted (horses with two copies) bred to a non-carrier. That will give you 100% carriers of the disease.

ETA their little thing at the top doesn't match their squares. NH and HH are actually used in reference to HYPP. HERDA is N/HRD or HRD/HRD.
Thank you.

That was my question. So an afflicted horse is both carrier and suffering from the disease where a carrier only carries the gene and will only pass it on partially.

Now I understand.
 
#19 ·
I still read it that way and I still feel that's what you were implying.

That same site shows that a herda horse and a normal horse would be 100% carrier which is why I question the data on that particular site.

I'm asking questions because I don't know answers or I am looking for clarification or even to ensure that what I think is correct, is infact, a true statement.
 
#21 ·
HERDA afflicted is a horse that has two copies of the HERDA gene. The site IS correct in that a HERDA afflicted horse bred to a noncarrier will produce all 100% carriers.

HERDA Afflicted horses are HRD/HRD. They only have HERDA genes to pass on. That is why a HERDA horse bred to a a nonHERDA (N/N) would produce carriers (N/HRD) everytime.
 
#22 ·
HERDA afflicted is a horse that has two copies of the HERDA gene. The site IS correct in that a HERDA afflicted horse bred to a noncarrier will produce all 100% carriers.

HERDA Afflicted horses are HRD/HRD. They only have HERDA genes to pass on. That is why a HERDA horse bred to a a nonHERDA (N/N) would produce carriers (N/HRD) everytime.
But only a percentage, correct? (PS- I have no intentions of breeding a HERDA carrier nor do I endorse it)
 
#24 ·
Nope, an HRD/HRD horse bred to a N/N horse will produce N/HRD horses everytime (100%).


N/HRD to N/HRD is 25% N/N, 50% N/HRD, and 25% HRD/HRD.

N/HRD to N/N is 50% N/HRD and 50% N/N.

Obviously N/N to N/N is 100% N/N (and HRD/HRD to HRD/HRD is 100% HRD/HRD)
This was the part that first got me confused becuase of this statement:

Breedings between normal and carrier horses will not produce a HERDA foal although 50% of the foals are expected to be carriers.

So that 50% you are talking about is CARRIER.

I know this gets into the hows and why's of breeding and the money thing but now I'm getting it. The breeder thinks... OK 50% chance it's a carrier but who cares because it's just a carrier and so they breed and then either get a mare or a potential winner so they show and earn titles, money and points and then... OH gee, breed again... and it may or may not be a carrier.

Ok... light go's on...
 
#26 ·
Yeah, the whole point is that many of the top name breeders don't care if they are producing carriers or not. They breed their carrier stallions to hundreds of mares thus keeping HERDA going forward into the next generations. What I'm saying is that there are enough well bred performing stallions that do NOT carry HERDA, so I really don't see a need to use the carriers as breeding animals. That is not even counting the known carriers that aren't even alive anymore, but their collected semen is still being used!
 
#27 ·
Thank you for your patience with me Nd. I think I completely get it now. Saddly I am one of those that only know the basics on certain issues because they don't affect me. I have an Impressive mare (HYPP/NN) so when I decided to breed her I got HYPP smart because I had a need to know. With Herda - I had merely a basic understanding and I think I read too far into things and really confuse myself.

Very interesting topic Animal.
 
#29 ·
We all tend to overcomplicate things and look deeper than is necessary...I do it all the time.

The hereditary genetics of HERDA are exactly the same as HYPP, so just apply your HYPP knowledge to HERDA. The only difference is a HYPP carrier can be afflicted, but a HERDA carrier cannot...it takes two copies of the gene to induce actual HERDA affliction...
 
#28 ·
To me it is just one more thing to look at and think about when breeding. For me it is assigned a weight and that is all put into the decision process as to use a given stallion or mare or not.

There is no way I would ever say that no HERDA carriers can ever be used or registered. That is just not realistic.
 
#30 ·
To me it is just one more thing to look at and think about when breeding. For me it is assigned a weight and that is all put into the decision process as to use a given stallion or mare or not.

There is no way I would ever say that no HERDA carriers can ever be used or registered. That is just not realistic.
Breeding carriers perpetuates the gene that causes the disease...there is no argument against that - it is a fact.

If no HERDA carrier were ever bred again, the gene would disappear completely in one generation...there is no argument against that
- it is a fact.

If everyone refused to breed carrier to carrier for now and all time, so the disease would never manifest itself despite the presence of the gene, then I wouldn't have an issue with breeding carriers to non carriers. This would let us have our cake and eat it too. But we both know that is not realistic either.

The darn problem is that while you and I and others may be knowledgeable and responsible breeders, we sadly represent a small minority of breeders. The vast majority of people that breed know little or nothing about HERDA, HYPP, SCIDS, and other genetic diseases, and don't subscribe to horse forums or other sources of information. What we deem as "common knowledge" is only common knowledge in the circles we run in...much of the world is either ignorant or just doesn't care.

That's why none of these diseases will ever be erradicated - poor breeders or breeders breeding unregistered stock with unknown ancestries. However, it is my opinion (and it is only an opinion), the registries should shoulder the responsibility to erradicate these diseases from registered stock. It can be done, and it can be done within the breeding lifetime of the horses now in existance - about 25 years. It is also my opinion that this should actually be a DUTY and a RESPONSIBILITY of the registries, which should be acting as stewards of their breeds rather than sitting around thinking up ways to increase their fee revenues.

You and I have always disagreed on this issue to a degree, although you know I don't condemn you because you know what you are doing. I just am personally more concerned with the bigger picture and consider the interest of our breeds more important than the interest of we owners and it bugs me that we don't eliminate HERDA and other horrible genetic diseases in our registered stock when it is easily within our ability to do so...
 
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#33 ·
The AQHA is going to be offering a panel of tests which will include a test for HERDA so owners can identify horses who are carriers. I don't know if that information will then be printed on a horse's papers, or not. As it is, the tests for HERDA and GBED are available without registry involvement. This move by the AQHA could, however, be the beginning of new regulations for carriers.
 
#35 ·
HERDA - Live Foal Guarantee

I'm helping a friend select a cutting horse stallion and there is one that he would like to consider that is offering a HERDA Live Foal Guarantee (uggh! not MY choice but it's not my decision). My question is for those that have seen several of these "guarantees," are they all the same or have you seen variations of the terms? What would be the best wording if you were to select one of these stallions?
 
#53 ·
HERDA - Live Foal Guarantee

I'm helping a friend select a cutting horse stallion and there is one that he would like to consider that is offering a HERDA Live Foal Guarantee (uggh! not MY choice but it's not my decision). My question is for those that have seen several of these "guarantees," are they all the same or have you seen variations of the terms? What would be the best wording if you were to select one of these stallions?
This friend has a mare (neg. for GBED/HERDA/PSSM) worthy of a stud fee in excess of $20,000 to the #1 cutting horse sire which just happens to be the stallion offering a HERDA Live Foal Guarantee. That is my reason for asking--the reason I'm seeking first hand experience from others who are accustom to the terms and conditions of such a clause.

I'm not a person that feels the need to influence others by opinion, rather facts. So, while I have my own opinion, the choice is ultimately his and I will keep my opinion to myself (although I did share it in the original post). I'm not seeking an "answer," just seeking facts. Thanks for your input.
 
#36 ·
Each one is going to be different and you just need to read the contract. I am not sure how you would garentee anything. There is a 50% chance of a carrier passing on the defective gene.

If the mare is N/N then it would be something that I would look at in the stallion put what weight I think it needs and add it into that other things the stallion has to offer vs what other stallions have to offer.

HERDA is no different then any other recessive gene. It needs to be treated as such.
 
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