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Appaloosa the Nez Perce and racist history.

15K views 70 replies 23 participants last post by  Smokum 
#1 ·
Been doing some digging, looking at pictures and just thinking. I am also in contact with the Nez Perce tribe, waiting on some info.

My theory, The Spanish/European being sole or original source of horses to the US is wrong.
The Nez Perce and probably others had horses before the Spanish showed up.
The escaped spanish horses populating the west is wrong.
The tribal horse cultures of the west originating solely from escaped Spanish stock is wrong.

Historical tidbits to back this up.
History books are notoriously racist and nationalistic. Lots of what we learned in US schools is total BS and leaves out alot. As well as a tendency for everything to be attributed to white people and Americans.
Columbus "discovered" America, a land occupied by millions,
Americans defeating the Nazis,,, yeh migh wanna look at Russian history, and on and on,,,
More and more Asian and African precolumbian contact seeing the light of day. Seems Egyptian pharohs liked their smoke and blow, Chinese artifacts in CA,,,, and frikking Pueblo's that speak a dialect of Japaneses.

Ok someone look at old school Appaloosas and Nez perce photos or drawings, Now look at a picture of Spanish horses, and a picture of central asian horses. Doesnt take a rocket scientist to see where those horses came from. Even today when the Nez perce have tried to restablish their breeds based on old photos and descriptions as well as some head of supposedly maintained stock. They went to Afganistan for breed stock NOT Europe of to other US breeds. Look at old Han dynasty chinese paintings of their horses, now look at an old stock appaloosa.

The Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Polynesians, believe it or not all had the ability to make ships and boats. But we are to assume only white people crossed an ocean ? Especially ones with currents that would make it even easier to hit the Pacific Northwest than for Europeans to hit the Northeast.

SO by 1804 Lewis in Clark found a tribe that was already famous for horse breeding and had even developed their own trademark breed, yet we are to believe this was a result of enough horses getting loose in mexico starting in the 1500's walking through thousands of miles of country inhabited by tribes whos first inclination when seeing horses was to eat them. Seriously horses woulda been mega hard to get to the Americas, You honestly think people would just turn em loose willy nilly ? Then they travel through mountains outside natural migration routes, and stumbling upon a tribe of people with little recorded european contact prior to 1804, SO all that was gonna happen in less than 250 years ?
 
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#38 ·
It is possible that there were horses still here in the US prior to the Spanish coming here but they were likely not Appys. but a pony similar to the UK Exmoor. The Exmoor pony has a unique jaw feature which has been found in older fossils remains in the US leading many experts to believe that this is where the pony originated in its more prehistoric form. The breed also has other primitive characteristics such as the make up of its coat, the heavy bony ridge above the eyes
Its said that the horse disappeared from the US where it evolved 60 million years ago at about the same time as humans entered it, crossing the Bering Straits and going in opposite directions and as the Indians themselves seemed to have little knowledge of horses when the Spanish arrived it was assumed they hunted what were left to extinction - that might not have been the case though and the large ridden Spanish horses would have looked very different to the small rough hairy ponies they saw only as a food source.
Spotted ponies were commonplace in European history and the cave paintings in France that depict them date back to c.25000 years ago, Europeans also traded with the Chinese and the spotted horses from that region became highly prized by the Spanish so I think that they are the most likely source of the appaloosa.
 
#40 ·
Let me repeat...there is absolutely no evidence - nada - that horses lived in North America between 10,000 years ago until the Spanish arrived...no fossils, no myths, no legends...nothing. There was no "mystery pony" that survived and lived nearly 9,000 years, leaving no evidence.

However, your conclusion is absolutely logical and correct...Spanish Jennets, from which the original Appys and of course Pasos are descended, originated primarily from far eastern Asian horses with some unknowns mixed in - probably Barbs.

Some people, myself included, believe that the original Appys bred by the Nez Perce WERE Spanish Jennets period - later crossed with drafts and other horses that became available, that changed the Appy from its original light and rangey conformation to a thicker stockier conformation, and then even later crossed to produce a stock breed by the white man, resulting in the typical modern Appy we see today. True foundation Appy breeders produce the intermediate Appy - the thicker type with draft blood, but I know of nowhere that you can find an Appy that is so pure as to justify being labeled an "original" Appy/Spanish Jennet...the same being said for the now extinct Spanish Jennet itself, that is in the process of being recreated as closely as possible...
 
#39 ·
, Europeans also traded with the Chinese and the spotted horses from that region became highly prized by the Spanish so I think that they are the most likely source of the appaloosa.

That was what I was trying to say jaydee. Thank you, just couldn't get it to come out right on the screen.
 
#41 ·
It is known that at one time the continental shelf on all the continents was above water. This means one could cross the Bering Sea without water craft. That is likely when Asian horses crossed the Bering Sea, especially as pack animals. People move to new areas for a variety of reasons. One major difference between the Nez Perce horses and the Spanish was that these little horses could gallop all day long and also did an easy gait that has come to be known as the appaloosa shuffle. The history of north america has been badly distorted in the white man's quest to prove superiority. Who is rapidly destroying this planet - the "superior" white man, not the Indians.
 
#43 ·
Ghengis Khan and his descendants conqured much of the known world on the backs of the Mongol horse. From China to Eastern Europe . those Icelandic horses look a lot like those the mongols use today.
Without hard factual evidence there is no way to logically dispute the fact that horses were first introduced back to the Americas by the Spainish.
Oral history of the Native American Tribes gives us insight into their introduction to the modern horse. Shalom
 
#44 ·
nothing I have said anywhere has anythnig to do with 10,000 years ago. I dont know why you keep harping on it.
I said that the Nez perce horses came from Asian trade or contact prior to a huge influx of Spanish horses. When were the mongols tryign to conquer the world ? 12-1300 hundred ish ? Chinese were saiing around in 14 hundred. Currents would carry them to pacific northwest. If all these horses came from spain, Why didnt all the advanced breeding horse cultures come from mexican area ?
There isnt really any written record one way or another. That I am aware of until Lewis and clark arrived. There was some exploration in the area earlier by Europeans. That probably left notes. And also quite a bit of evidence of asian contact off and on.
 
#56 ·
nothing I have said anywhere has anythnig to do with 10,000 years ago. I dont know why you keep harping on it.
I said that the Nez perce horses came from Asian trade or contact prior to a huge influx of Spanish horses. When were the mongols tryign to conquer the world ? 12-1300 hundred ish ? Chinese were saiing around in 14 hundred. Currents would carry them to pacific northwest. If all these horses came from spain, Why didnt all the advanced breeding horse cultures come from mexican area ?
There isnt really any written record one way or another. That I am aware of until Lewis and clark arrived. There was some exploration in the area earlier by Europeans. That probably left notes. And also quite a bit of evidence of asian contact off and on.
I don't know - why do you keep harping on a fantasy? Forget about horses for a moment. For many years people have been trying to determine if there was Asian contact with North America prior to the Spanish. There is no evidence of it, and civilizations do not make contact without leaving evidence. There is evidence of contact with SOUTH America, but not North America, although Indians (native Americans) are descended from both immigrants over the land bridge and immigrants from South America. However, there is no evidence of horses in South America prior to the Spanish, any more than there is evidence in North America.

Fossils aside, if there were horses here prior to the Spanish, we would know about it. A culture, particularly a primitive culture, is not going to have horses without leaving evidence of it. Sometimes that evidence is a long time in being found, as in L'Anse aux Meadows where the Vikings settled 1,000 years ago, but there would be clear and present evidence of a settlement only 600 years ago - particularly as populated as the Left Coast is - it is not exactly wilderness.

One may conjure up all kinds of theories...horse swam here from China themselves, horses crossed the Arctic and came down from Canada, or were transported here by aliens that wanted to repopulate them, or a big tornado carried them over and dropped them gently on the Left Coast. But why conjure up theories when the evidence is clear...there were no horses here before the Spanish, Appys are descended from Spanish stock, were later crossed with other breeds arrived from the East, and Appys became a mixed breed, which they remain today. Some people want to sensationalize or glorify the origin of Appys, but then some people aren't satisfied to have "just" a bay or a chestnut - there has to be some speeshul tag attached. The Spanish brought them over, the Indians stole them or traded for them or got ahold of them one way or another, and bred them - as the evidence suggests. No big mystery...
 
#45 ·
I really have no idea, but with the ships of the time, I imagine it would also be possible that those very currents that would bring them there prevented them from going back. I don't really know, and honestly haven't really studied any of this so feel free to ignore. I agree that there's no proof so everything is just speculation, but I also agree that history has been greatly distorted. Particularly American history. Anyway... It would really only take a few ships carrying horses getting swept off course. If the ship was damaged or even just lost, and it's quite possible there wouldn't be any records. A huge part of records would have required returning to Asia which could easily have been impossible.
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#46 ·
So Joe, are you suggesting that some of the appaloosas were here before the Spaniards brought over horses -- not from before 10,000 years ago, but maybe brought in by Asian ships in somewhat more modern history? Just trying to clarify. It is an interesting idea.
 
#47 ·
read a couple diary and travel reports of some early french explorers to wyoming and montana, seems they crossed paths with the "People of the Horse" in the early 1700's. Also Dakota language by that time was full of horse related words.
Something I have read which may put a better time line on things. Problem is hard to pen down a date. especially when the gap is only a couple hundred years. Seems the NezPerce diet and living quarters changed after they became a horse culture. Prior to owning horses they didnt eat or use buffalo products.
 
#51 ·
in my mind yes. to short a time period for an entire culture, language, breeding program and way of life to spring up. Been reading about the great Pueblo uprising of 1680, which according to mainstream history is the beginning of the wild north american herds.
I would think only 30 or so years later, half a continent away horses sourced form there would still be a novelty, not a way of life, complete with advanced breeding practices.
They had em for a least a few hundred years.
 
#55 ·
... to short a time period for an entire culture, language, breeding program and way of life to spring up...They had em for a least a few hundred years.
So...you think the Plains Indians ALSO got their horses from the Chinese?

How long has it taken our culture to start revolving around computers? I took a class in college using punchcards to program a mainframe in Illinois (IIRC), while my 2 year old granddaughter seems quite capable of navigating her way around on Mommy's tablet. Heck, even 20 years ago, I had 5.25 floppies on my desk!
 
#52 ·
lack of fossils it totally meaningless. An animal is more likely to die of lightning strike than to leave a fossil. Of all the LIVING animals we know about only about 5% of them have ever left a fossil that has been found. Also I ahve been talking about trade in the last 600-800 years.
 
#53 ·
Though I can see that its very possible that the Chinese did set foot on US soil in early history I think the distance would have likely prohibited them from bringing livestock of any size. Those brought here by the Spanish and later British were done so for the main reason of them remaining here as settlers and the distance much shorter
Fossil remains of Equus have been found on every continent except Australia and Antartica.
It is true that fossil remains are very rare in terms of the numbers of animals that existed and history constantly reminds us that its not wise to say that something didn't exist purely based on it being seen - this was a vast country and many parts of it were never trodden on so small primitive ponies may have remained here and survived and even interbred with the more recent feral stock abandoned by the spanish. When you consider the numbers of carnivores that roamed and bred more prolifically anything that they caught would be pretty much totally consumed
I still don't see that the native Indians would have viewed them as anything more than 'lunch'.
 
#58 ·
actually they cant. The original horses are all dead, or in bred out of existance with western stock. Most of the herds were killed when Joseph surrendered, some ranchers here and thier made claims to have preserved some, but the Army's policy was to exterminate the breed, wither from killing or releasing Draft stallions. And it is likely once Spanish stock eventually did arrive on scene there was cross breeding going on.
 
#57 ·
I think the adding in of accusations of "racism" do not lend a true sense of fair debate, and it also puts an unwanted, and somewhat edgy, tenor into the whole thing. Yes, there are bad white people, as there are bad people of EVERY race and religion and sex and.....

Most folks just want to get to the truth...I don't like being called a racist because I am white(in fact, anyone calling someone a racist because they are "white" is, actually, racist)...I am also part Cherokee (my ancestors are the Holders from Oklahoma--some of which "robbed" the natives of their land by only paying a penny or so an acre..--but some of them embraced the native folks and that's, of course, where I get the Cherokee blood).

Yes, at times, some folks took advantage of their position and tried to rewrite history. But, usually, it is fixed by someone doing the "right" thing. Throughout history the "victors" have been the ones that write the history of that time, and at times, they wrote it to favor themselves. However, through research and using artifacts, diaries, etc. we usually end up getting somewhere close to the truth. Russians (soviets at the time) were not taught in school that Stalin massacred over 20 million, and as many as 40 or 60 million, of his OWN people to ensure his hard line communist(dictator, really) approach would prevail. Most of us weren't taught in high school that most of the slaves that were brought to America were already enslaved by other Africans of a different tribe, and then sold to the slave traders. Somehow, it was all the "white man's" fault.

And, saddlebag, it's not really the "white man" that is destroying the planet...most of the world's unregulated pollution is coming from China, and some other lesser "non-white" countries..... The "white man" is actually leading the way in trying to protect the planet, along with folks of other ancestry....

Now, to the topic, I think it was probably the Spaniards that brought in the horses that made up the bulk of the horses here. I don't think, as some say, it is entirely impossible that there were some smaller, ponies running around...but, since most accounts written by those moving North from Mexico, or East from the early colonies, give no account of meeting "mounted" natives, then it is unlikely that there were "horse people" prior the Spaniards inflluence.
 
#59 ·
history always has racial overtones. go look at any western drawing of Jesus, when he probably didnt look like that. Ask any kid to describe indians, bet the Hollywood version comes to mind. Just the way it is. Whatever group you are in was the good guys, whatever group your not in is the bad guys.
I think our mainstream history books greatly discredit what other cultures have accomplished.
Actually there is some evidence of horses in South America cave drawings including images that resemble Chinese Cavalry.
Also the horses in the north west
Resembling asian horses,
Gaiting like Asian horses,
Being part of a language and culture and very well established with huge herds of a unique breed, only a brief time after the earliest Spanish horses showed up on scene, IS the evidence of Asian trade.
Sorry but I dont take school history books as the gospel I find more and more distortions and out right fabrications every day.
For many years I am sure everyone laughed at stories of Red and Leif Erickson exploring North America 3 hundred years before Columbus.
 
#61 ·
I don't think its fair to play the 'race card'. The majority of Europeans feel very guilty about they way their ancestors treated the American Indian, Aborigine, African and Maori populations.
There is no reason to not think that people from Europe could have made it to the Americas in small sea crafts but not bringing animals - the journey was far too long to have space for provisions for them
Heyerdahl did his sea voyages in crafts made to primitive designs to show that people could have made the journeys all around the globe taking with them their own histories.
Thor Heyerdahl
The cave paintings in South America could well have been made by a people who travelled there from countries where horses were well known but not essentially that they took them with them or still had access to them
The gaited horses of the Mongolians spread to all parts of Europe. There are historical references to horses that moved at a gait or amble from as far back as 6000BCE - attached link to info on them in European History as the references to gaited horses in Europe pre-date those of the Chinese
 
#63 ·
Joe those chinese horse were probably the same as the ones used by Mongols today. the same horse the Genghis Khan conqured much of the known world with. that might very well explain how horses from europe inherited that same gait. Like I posted earlier those Icelandic horses resemble the modern day Mongol horse. They also gait.
The chinese kept very accurate records of minute details of their voyages and trading expeditions.
There is no documented evidence of a major voyage or discovery of a new continent. NONE
Romantic notions aside, without any written or physical evidence the theory you are posting about is just that a romantic theory someone has thought up to challenge the known history of the world. Shalom
 
#64 ·
Joe4D, I agree 100%. When we think of the much larger animals that roamed this continent, why would bones of almost anything exist. Death resulted in food for another. There is an assumption that the Indians had little to do with buffalo until the horse. That is another fallacy. We all know about heel flies. They would converge on the buffalo, attacking their heels for a blood mean and the herd would begin to run to escape the flies. They liked to head for water and this would result in huge stampedes (out of control). If there was a steep embankments then hundred, maybe thousands of animals ran to their deaths. The roar of a stampede was herd for miles so the Indians would converge on the carcasses.
 
#65 ·
The problem with blaming an absence of fossils on the difficulty of fossils forming is that we DO have evidence from previous millenia. And since we're dealing with things that happened 1-2,000 years ago, we also have lots of other indicators - toys, drawings, equipment, etc. Yet none of that exists for horses in America in 1000 AD.

Once horses were re-introduced, there once again becomes a lot of evidence for their presence. So why the gap in the evidence. Plentiful, then nothing, then plentiful? How did many thousands and thousands of people stop noticing horses? And then start noticing again?
 
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