Appaloosa the Nez Perce and racist history. - Page 4 - The Horse Forum
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post #31 of 71 Old 07-31-2012, 10:02 PM
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Good, brief summary on pre-Columbus contact theories here:

Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact hypotheses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Another good link:

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/scienc...tml?c=y&page=1

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post #32 of 71 Old 08-01-2012, 12:02 AM
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But the Spanish people hauled them over? Were there ships bigger?
In a nutshell, yes. The Chinese did have some pretty big ships going by their paintings and writings but again we have no written account of them coming over. Archeologist believe that most visitors came over in small, open boats. Enough room for a small family or crew living mainly off fish they caught.

Ships take a lot of resources and knowledge to build and that takes civilization. With civilization comes records and now we are back to lack of records showing sea faring races visiting the Americas.
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post #33 of 71 Old 08-02-2012, 05:40 PM
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But the Spanish people hauled them over? Were there ships bigger?
It's a significantly shorter journey across the Atlantic than it is across the Pacific.
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post #34 of 71 Old 04-08-2013, 04:04 AM Thread Starter
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I know this is an old thread, but just stumbled across two unrelated articles. That add more information.
The Indian shuffle gait of the Nez perce horse was pretty well documented, even today some lines of Appaloosa still do it..

And low and behold guess which horses have the same gait ? Mongolian horses.
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post #35 of 71 Old 04-08-2013, 03:01 PM
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I know this is an old thread, but just stumbled across two unrelated articles. That add more information.
The Indian shuffle gait of the Nez perce horse was pretty well documented, even today some lines of Appaloosa still do it..

And low and behold guess which horses have the same gait ? Mongolian horses.
There are spotted horses on 25,000 year old cave drawings in France, too.

That doesn't change the nearly 100% probability that the gait originated from Spanish Jennet horses - which also, by the way, had Appy LP and PATN. There still is no physical evidence Appys - or any other type of horse - was present in North America from 10,000 years ago until reintroduced by the Spanish.

As horses exited North America 10,000 years ago, and the land bridge disappeared 7,000 years ago, and considering all horses originated in North America, it is actually more factually correct that that Mongolian horses, as all horses, are descendants of North American horses. It is pretty historically clear which breeds of horses have been reintroduced to North America since the Spanish arrived, and I don't believe Mongolian horses were among them...
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post #36 of 71 Old 04-08-2013, 03:37 PM
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Here's another thing to think about. There is a long history of European and Asian trade going on before Columbus sailed the ocean blue in 1492. That trade was facilitated by the use of horses. That could explain some of the similar traits noted earlier in this thread. Lets not forget that is why Columbus sailed I the first place. To find a quicker way to Asia and trade.

Simple similar characteristics in horse structure or color to me does not rewrite history. Documentation will do it for me. If you find documentation I would love to see it.

It actually kind of funny but my father in law and I had this discussion about a year ago or so. He was saying something similar as you Joe. We were at the Lewis and Clark center in great falls mt. I just asked where he found the documentation o. It because I'd like to see it. Him being a history buff just kind of stopped pressing the issue. What I'm saying is to rewrite history you need documentation. Without it is theroy until proven otherwise.

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post #37 of 71 Old 04-08-2013, 04:12 PM
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A little hard to swallow. If the Native American tribes who quickly learned to ride and not just eat horses had had them much earlier, they would have met the Mayflower on horseback. If you do some museum research you'll find that the trading among the indigenous American people moved things like ocean shells far inwards in the continent. They weren't high in populations but they did meet any many tribes considered themselves cousins of other tribes, like the Arapahoe and the Cheyenne.
So much of America was a foodfest for the horse. They are faster and bigger than deer and elk and would have multiplied quickly, seeding pasture as they moved.

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post #38 of 71 Old 04-08-2013, 04:36 PM
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It is possible that there were horses still here in the US prior to the Spanish coming here but they were likely not Appys. But a pony similar to the UK Exmoor. The Exmoor pony has a unique jaw feature which has been found in older fossils remains in the US leading many experts to believe that this is where the pony originated in its more prehistoric form. The breed also has other primitive characteristics such as the make up of its coat, the heavy bony ridge above the eyes
Its said that the horse disappeared from the US where it evolved 60 million years ago at about the same time as humans entered it, crossing the Bering Straits and going in opposite directions and as the Indians themselves seemed to have little knowledge of horses when the Spanish arrived it was assumed they hunted what were left to extinction - that might not have been the case though and the large ridden Spanish horses would have looked very different to the small rough hairy ponies they saw only as a food source.
Spotted ponies were commonplace in European history and the cave paintings in France that depict them date back to c.25000 years ago, Europeans also traded with the Chinese and the spotted horses from that region became highly prized by the Spanish so I think that they are the most likely source of the appaloosa.
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post #39 of 71 Old 04-08-2013, 04:46 PM
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, Europeans also traded with the Chinese and the spotted horses from that region became highly prized by the Spanish so I think that they are the most likely source of the appaloosa.

That was what I was trying to say jaydee. Thank you, just couldn't get it to come out right on the screen.
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post #40 of 71 Old 04-08-2013, 05:37 PM
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It is possible that there were horses still here in the US prior to the Spanish coming here but they were likely not Appys. But a pony similar to the UK Exmoor. The Exmoor pony has a unique jaw feature which has been found in older fossils remains in the US leading many experts to believe that this is where the pony originated in its more prehistoric form. The breed also has other primitive characteristics such as the make up of its coat, the heavy bony ridge above the eyes
Its said that the horse disappeared from the US where it evolved 60 million years ago at about the same time as humans entered it, crossing the Bering Straits and going in opposite directions and as the Indians themselves seemed to have little knowledge of horses when the Spanish arrived it was assumed they hunted what were left to extinction - that might not have been the case though and the large ridden Spanish horses would have looked very different to the small rough hairy ponies they saw only as a food source.
Spotted ponies were commonplace in European history and the cave paintings in France that depict them date back to c.25000 years ago, Europeans also traded with the Chinese and the spotted horses from that region became highly prized by the Spanish so I think that they are the most likely source of the appaloosa.
Let me repeat...there is absolutely no evidence - nada - that horses lived in North America between 10,000 years ago until the Spanish arrived...no fossils, no myths, no legends...nothing. There was no "mystery pony" that survived and lived nearly 9,000 years, leaving no evidence.

However, your conclusion is absolutely logical and correct...Spanish Jennets, from which the original Appys and of course Pasos are descended, originated primarily from far eastern Asian horses with some unknowns mixed in - probably Barbs.

Some people, myself included, believe that the original Appys bred by the Nez Perce WERE Spanish Jennets period - later crossed with drafts and other horses that became available, that changed the Appy from its original light and rangey conformation to a thicker stockier conformation, and then even later crossed to produce a stock breed by the white man, resulting in the typical modern Appy we see today. True foundation Appy breeders produce the intermediate Appy - the thicker type with draft blood, but I know of nowhere that you can find an Appy that is so pure as to justify being labeled an "original" Appy/Spanish Jennet...the same being said for the now extinct Spanish Jennet itself, that is in the process of being recreated as closely as possible...
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