Appaloosa the Nez Perce and racist history. - Page 6
 
 

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Appaloosa the Nez Perce and racist history.

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  • Were the nez perce slave traders

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    04-09-2013, 08:29 AM
  #51
Green Broke
In my mind yes. To short a time period for an entire culture, language, breeding program and way of life to spring up. Been reading about the great Pueblo uprising of 1680, which according to mainstream history is the beginning of the wild north american herds.
I would think only 30 or so years later, half a continent away horses sourced form there would still be a novelty, not a way of life, complete with advanced breeding practices.
They had em for a least a few hundred years.
     
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    04-09-2013, 08:39 AM
  #52
Green Broke
Lack of fossils it totally meaningless. An animal is more likely to die of lightning strike than to leave a fossil. Of all the LIVING animals we know about only about 5% of them have ever left a fossil that has been found. Also I ahve been talking about trade in the last 600-800 years.
     
    04-09-2013, 09:22 AM
  #53
Super Moderator
Though I can see that its very possible that the Chinese did set foot on US soil in early history I think the distance would have likely prohibited them from bringing livestock of any size. Those brought here by the Spanish and later British were done so for the main reason of them remaining here as settlers and the distance much shorter
Fossil remains of Equus have been found on every continent except Australia and Antartica.
It is true that fossil remains are very rare in terms of the numbers of animals that existed and history constantly reminds us that its not wise to say that something didn't exist purely based on it being seen - this was a vast country and many parts of it were never trodden on so small primitive ponies may have remained here and survived and even interbred with the more recent feral stock abandoned by the spanish. When you consider the numbers of carnivores that roamed and bred more prolifically anything that they caught would be pretty much totally consumed
I still don't see that the native Indians would have viewed them as anything more than 'lunch'.
     
    04-09-2013, 10:11 AM
  #54
Trained
It should be easy enough to compare the DNA of appaloosas and Spanish horses and Mongolian horses and determine ancestry. The technology is either there or will be soon.
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    04-09-2013, 10:27 AM
  #55
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe4d    
... to short a time period for an entire culture, language, breeding program and way of life to spring up...They had em for a least a few hundred years.
So...you think the Plains Indians ALSO got their horses from the Chinese?

How long has it taken our culture to start revolving around computers? I took a class in college using punchcards to program a mainframe in Illinois (IIRC), while my 2 year old granddaughter seems quite capable of navigating her way around on Mommy's tablet. Heck, even 20 years ago, I had 5.25 floppies on my desk!
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    04-09-2013, 10:52 AM
  #56
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe4d    
nothing I have said anywhere has anythnig to do with 10,000 years ago. I don't know why you keep harping on it.
I said that the Nez perce horses came from Asian trade or contact prior to a huge influx of Spanish horses. When were the mongols tryign to conquer the world ? 12-1300 hundred ish ? Chinese were saiing around in 14 hundred. Currents would carry them to pacific northwest. If all these horses came from spain, Why didnt all the advanced breeding horse cultures come from mexican area ?
There isnt really any written record one way or another. That I am aware of until Lewis and clark arrived. There was some exploration in the area earlier by Europeans. That probably left notes. And also quite a bit of evidence of asian contact off and on.
I don't know - why do you keep harping on a fantasy? Forget about horses for a moment. For many years people have been trying to determine if there was Asian contact with North America prior to the Spanish. There is no evidence of it, and civilizations do not make contact without leaving evidence. There is evidence of contact with SOUTH America, but not North America, although Indians (native Americans) are descended from both immigrants over the land bridge and immigrants from South America. However, there is no evidence of horses in South America prior to the Spanish, any more than there is evidence in North America.

Fossils aside, if there were horses here prior to the Spanish, we would know about it. A culture, particularly a primitive culture, is not going to have horses without leaving evidence of it. Sometimes that evidence is a long time in being found, as in L'Anse aux Meadows where the Vikings settled 1,000 years ago, but there would be clear and present evidence of a settlement only 600 years ago - particularly as populated as the Left Coast is - it is not exactly wilderness.

One may conjure up all kinds of theories...horse swam here from China themselves, horses crossed the Arctic and came down from Canada, or were transported here by aliens that wanted to repopulate them, or a big tornado carried them over and dropped them gently on the Left Coast. But why conjure up theories when the evidence is clear...there were no horses here before the Spanish, Appys are descended from Spanish stock, were later crossed with other breeds arrived from the East, and Appys became a mixed breed, which they remain today. Some people want to sensationalize or glorify the origin of Appys, but then some people aren't satisfied to have "just" a bay or a chestnut - there has to be some speeshul tag attached. The Spanish brought them over, the Indians stole them or traded for them or got ahold of them one way or another, and bred them - as the evidence suggests. No big mystery...
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    04-09-2013, 10:53 AM
  #57
Foal
I think the adding in of accusations of "racism" do not lend a true sense of fair debate, and it also puts an unwanted, and somewhat edgy, tenor into the whole thing. Yes, there are bad white people, as there are bad people of EVERY race and religion and sex and.....

Most folks just want to get to the truth...I don't like being called a racist because I am white(in fact, anyone calling someone a racist because they are "white" is, actually, racist)...I am also part Cherokee (my ancestors are the Holders from Oklahoma--some of which "robbed" the natives of their land by only paying a penny or so an acre..--but some of them embraced the native folks and that's, of course, where I get the Cherokee blood).

Yes, at times, some folks took advantage of their position and tried to rewrite history. But, usually, it is fixed by someone doing the "right" thing. Throughout history the "victors" have been the ones that write the history of that time, and at times, they wrote it to favor themselves. However, through research and using artifacts, diaries, etc. we usually end up getting somewhere close to the truth. Russians (soviets at the time) were not taught in school that Stalin massacred over 20 million, and as many as 40 or 60 million, of his OWN people to ensure his hard line communist(dictator, really) approach would prevail. Most of us weren't taught in high school that most of the slaves that were brought to America were already enslaved by other Africans of a different tribe, and then sold to the slave traders. Somehow, it was all the "white man's" fault.

And, saddlebag, it's not really the "white man" that is destroying the planet...most of the world's unregulated pollution is coming from China, and some other lesser "non-white" countries..... The "white man" is actually leading the way in trying to protect the planet, along with folks of other ancestry....

Now, to the topic, I think it was probably the Spaniards that brought in the horses that made up the bulk of the horses here. I don't think, as some say, it is entirely impossible that there were some smaller, ponies running around...but, since most accounts written by those moving North from Mexico, or East from the early colonies, give no account of meeting "mounted" natives, then it is unlikely that there were "horse people" prior the Spaniards inflluence.
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    04-09-2013, 11:17 AM
  #58
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celeste    
It should be easy enough to compare the DNA of appaloosas and Spanish horses and Mongolian horses and determine ancestry. The technology is either there or will be soon.
actually they can't. The original horses are all dead, or in bred out of existance with western stock. Most of the herds were killed when Joseph surrendered, some ranchers here and thier made claims to have preserved some, but the Army's policy was to exterminate the breed, wither from killing or releasing Draft stallions. And it is likely once Spanish stock eventually did arrive on scene there was cross breeding going on.
     
    04-09-2013, 11:29 AM
  #59
Green Broke
History always has racial overtones. Go look at any western drawing of Jesus, when he probably didnt look like that. Ask any kid to describe indians, bet the Hollywood version comes to mind. Just the way it is. Whatever group you are in was the good guys, whatever group your not in is the bad guys.
I think our mainstream history books greatly discredit what other cultures have accomplished.
Actually there is some evidence of horses in South America cave drawings including images that resemble Chinese Cavalry.
Also the horses in the north west
Resembling asian horses,
Gaiting like Asian horses,
Being part of a language and culture and very well established with huge herds of a unique breed, only a brief time after the earliest Spanish horses showed up on scene, IS the evidence of Asian trade.
Sorry but I don't take school history books as the gospel I find more and more distortions and out right fabrications every day.
For many years I am sure everyone laughed at stories of Red and Leif Erickson exploring North America 3 hundred years before Columbus.
     
    04-09-2013, 11:56 AM
  #60
Foal
I was taught that Red and Leif were here ....

I was also taught about how Indians were treated, we watched the Wounded Knee documentary...and I was schooled in Texas.

Still, no need to make it a racist thing....
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