Appaloosa the Nez Perce and racist history. - Page 7 - The Horse Forum
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post #61 of 71 Old 04-09-2013, 12:20 PM
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I don't think its fair to play the 'race card'. The majority of Europeans feel very guilty about they way their ancestors treated the American Indian, Aborigine, African and Maori populations.
There is no reason to not think that people from Europe could have made it to the Americas in small sea crafts but not bringing animals - the journey was far too long to have space for provisions for them
Heyerdahl did his sea voyages in crafts made to primitive designs to show that people could have made the journeys all around the globe taking with them their own histories.
Thor Heyerdahl
The cave paintings in South America could well have been made by a people who travelled there from countries where horses were well known but not essentially that they took them with them or still had access to them
The gaited horses of the Mongolians spread to all parts of Europe. There are historical references to horses that moved at a gait or amble from as far back as 6000BCE - attached link to info on them in European History as the references to gaited horses in Europe pre-date those of the Chinese
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post #62 of 71 Old 04-09-2013, 12:21 PM
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post #63 of 71 Old 04-10-2013, 02:08 AM
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Joe those chinese horse were probably the same as the ones used by Mongols today. the same horse the Genghis Khan conqured much of the known world with. that might very well explain how horses from europe inherited that same gait. Like I posted earlier those Icelandic horses resemble the modern day Mongol horse. They also gait.
The chinese kept very accurate records of minute details of their voyages and trading expeditions.
There is no documented evidence of a major voyage or discovery of a new continent. NONE
Romantic notions aside, without any written or physical evidence the theory you are posting about is just that a romantic theory someone has thought up to challenge the known history of the world. Shalom
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post #64 of 71 Old 04-10-2013, 08:13 AM
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Joe4D, I agree 100%. When we think of the much larger animals that roamed this continent, why would bones of almost anything exist. Death resulted in food for another. There is an assumption that the Indians had little to do with buffalo until the horse. That is another fallacy. We all know about heel flies. They would converge on the buffalo, attacking their heels for a blood mean and the herd would begin to run to escape the flies. They liked to head for water and this would result in huge stampedes (out of control). If there was a steep embankments then hundred, maybe thousands of animals ran to their deaths. The roar of a stampede was herd for miles so the Indians would converge on the carcasses.
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post #65 of 71 Old 04-10-2013, 09:39 AM
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The problem with blaming an absence of fossils on the difficulty of fossils forming is that we DO have evidence from previous millenia. And since we're dealing with things that happened 1-2,000 years ago, we also have lots of other indicators - toys, drawings, equipment, etc. Yet none of that exists for horses in America in 1000 AD.

Once horses were re-introduced, there once again becomes a lot of evidence for their presence. So why the gap in the evidence. Plentiful, then nothing, then plentiful? How did many thousands and thousands of people stop noticing horses? And then start noticing again?

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post #67 of 71 Old 04-20-2013, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe4d View Post
SO by 1804 Lewis in Clark found a tribe that was already famous for horse breeding and had even developed their own trademark breed, yet we are to believe this was a result of enough horses getting loose in mexico starting in the 1500's walking through thousands of miles of country inhabited by tribes whos first inclination when seeing horses was to eat them. Seriously horses woulda been mega hard to get to the Americas, You honestly think people would just turn em loose willy nilly ? Then they travel through mountains outside natural migration routes, and stumbling upon a tribe of people with little recorded european contact prior to 1804, SO all that was gonna happen in less than 250 years ?
The seven cities of gold might have been a fable, but the spanish looking for it was not. They also had literate padres that kept journals and even build missions along the way....long before 1804.
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post #68 of 71 Old 04-21-2013, 12:01 AM
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I don't believe this was mentioned earlier so here it is.
It is very easy to change the physical form of an animal very quickly. There is a study being done in Russia with foxes where they breed them only for tameness and with in 9 generations the foxes had floppy ears and patchy coats with in 13 generations they had curly tails and within 15 generations a few foxes were exhibiting shortened tails. This was from 1959-1975 and they weren't even breeding for these traits. Horses in a new environment would have needed to change and natural selection would have quickly selected for smaller hardier animals like Mongolian horses. Also, the gait that Appy's exhibit could have evolved separately. Changing one gene can create multiple other changes(like the foxes) the gene for that body type in horses may somehow be linked to the gene for that gait (that of course is if the gait is gene based I don't know I'm just going off what I've seen on this thread).
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post #69 of 71 Old 04-21-2013, 08:04 AM
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A recent study identified a recessive gene for gaiting.

Horse gait traced to single mutation : Nature News & Comment
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post #70 of 71 Old 04-24-2013, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Corporal View Post
A little hard to swallow. If the Native American tribes who quickly learned to ride and not just eat horses had had them much earlier, they would have met the Mayflower on horseback. If you do some museum research you'll find that the trading among the indigenous American people moved things like ocean shells far inwards in the continent. They weren't high in populations but they did meet any many tribes considered themselves cousins of other tribes, like the Arapahoe and the Cheyenne.
So much of America was a foodfest for the horse. They are faster and bigger than deer and elk and would have multiplied quickly, seeding pasture as they moved.
Actually, they (likely) did eat them. Prehistoric horses originated in North America, and those that stayed were wiped out about 10,000 years ago. https://www.savingamericasmustangs.o...ative_species/

Check this out: Remains Show Ancient Horses Were Hunted for Their Meat

"As the ice began to retreat on the North American continent 14,000 to 12,000 years ago, humans made their way to the New World. A massive extinction of megafauna—animals weighing more than 100 pounds (45 kilograms)—occurred in North America about 10,000 years ago. The role of humans in the extinction is the subject of debate among scientists.

"Retreating ice would cause changes in temperature, vegetation bands and probably a patchiness in vegetation and loss of habitat," said Paul McNeil, a Ph.D. candidate in paleontology at the University of Calgary who has been working the site. "This would stress the animal populations, and it wouldn't take much to push them over the edge to extinction.""
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