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Appie/color people ?

This is a discussion on Appie/color people ? within the Horse Breeds forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category
  • Do appaloosa foals have goggles around their eyes
  • What colour will a bay foal with blanket spots and silver mane go

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    10-15-2011, 10:35 PM
  #11
Trained
Definitely NOT a palomino base. Definitely a chestnut base. LP can do some screwy things to colour, but in my experience, it generally does not darken a colour.
     
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    10-15-2011, 10:55 PM
  #12
Foal
She sure is pretty! I'd say, base coat silver bay or silver dun -- note how the varnish marks which would otherwise be black or black-roan are washed out to a sort of brown? JMHO...
     
    10-15-2011, 11:19 PM
  #13
Trained
Not silver IMHO. Dark eyelashes. Silver usually has white eyelashes.
     
    10-16-2011, 12:13 AM
  #14
Foal
Chestnut born with a blanket, You can see the chestnut color at the knees and you can see the outline of where the blanket was.

Roaned out up front. And the spots with halos are called peacock spots.
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    10-16-2011, 10:27 AM
  #15
Weanling
Is she possibly a red dun base? Several of her body spots appear somewhat "peachy" and a bit lighter than the varnish on her knees-- from my experience with chestnuts, the body spots are most often darker than, or at least the same shade as the varnish on the legs. Is there any color left along her back or tailhead which might show a dorsal stripe?

Example-- here is a red dun based filly who has not yet roaned extensively-- note 'peachy' cast to the body, and slightly darker, redder legs--

CecilliaB likes this.
     
    10-16-2011, 10:33 AM
  #16
Foal
That's highly possible!

Joyce


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastowest    
Is she possibly a red dun base? Several of her body spots appear somewhat "peachy" and a bit lighter than the varnish on her knees-- from my experience with chestnuts, the body spots are most often darker than, or at least the same shade as the varnish on the legs. Is there any color left along her back or tailhead which might show a dorsal stripe?


     
    10-16-2011, 01:39 PM
  #17
Yearling
Eastowest that's a great example...I can totally see that to.

So, is roaning like greys in that the base color fades with time and they become more white?
     
    10-16-2011, 02:27 PM
  #18
Foal
Not really -- roan is the mixture of gray or white hairs in any base coat such as black, brown, bay or chestnut. Sometimes a foal will start with a number of dark hairs sprinkled throughout its coat, and those hairs will lighten with age while the base coat color doesn't change.

Not certain it has ever been determined for sure how an Appaloosa loses some of its base coat color over time, although The Appaloosa Project at Appaloosa coat patterns, coat colour genetics and practical information for breeders of spotted horses - The Appaloosa Project is working on it. (Caution: it is a $20 to $35 per year subscription!) Some say it's a modified graying gene that does not eventually result in white; others believe it's a sabino modifier. Still others think it's a characteristic found only in the Appaloosa, but if that were true, how do you explain that not all Appaloosas have it?! There used to be a Yahoo group that dealt with all horse colors and modifications; that was 1RainbowHorses@yahoogroups.com -- but it's history now and I don't know offhand of any others, tho' there may be some.

You might try as Google search for equine color coat genetics. It's a wonderful study! -- but a true "science" of equine coat color heredity has yet to emerge. That's what makes it so interesting! -- especially in the Appaloosas!

Joyce
     
    10-16-2011, 04:18 PM
  #19
Weanling
The hairs which progressively grow in and replace base-colored hair in both grey and appaloosa (LP) roan are white hairs.

At a young age/early stages, it might be difficult to tell if a horse is greying or if it is roaning due to LP roan-- the first thing to check is if the horse has a verified grey or LP parent, since neither thing can happen "out of nowhere"-- grey is a dominant gene and a parent must display it for an offspring to have inherited it, as is LP (although LP expression can be very very minimal in some horses.)

There are some visual clues-- Baby greys are often born a deeper "adult horse color" of whatever their original base color is, with white hairs making a 'goggle' like appearance around their eyes. (less commonly a foal who is going to roan quickly and early due to LP roan will have goggles-- not common, but I have seen a couple.)

Some LP horses are also born a deeper shade than normal for a foal coat-- but as LP roaning progresses, the hair left over is often the lighter hair-- so a bay foal might have very few black hairs as an LP roaned adult, making him look like he started out as chestnut.

With grey it is often the opposite-- as a chestnut horse greys, the darker hairs tend to be whats left, making the horse look like he started out a darker color than he actually did.

LP roaning tends to work from the hips and back forward and downward, while greying tends to work from the head and barrel backward and upward. Greying takes body color pretty evenly over the areas it is affecting-- possibly with dapples and fleabites during the process-- and usually leaves the lower legs and mane and tail for last. LP roaning typically leaves definite 'varnish marks'-- remaining base-colored areas over the bony prominences-- nasal ridges, point of shoulder and hip, knees and hocks. LP roans may, less commonly, show some dappling or fleabiting as well.

Grey progresses until everything is white (except possibly fleabites in a fleabitten grey), if ther horse lives long enough-- LP roaning eventually stops, usually leaving varnish marks and darker legs.

Greying affects the spots of a horse who is both LP and grey-- the spots will get more and more white hairs and eventually the hair will be all white if the horse lives long enough-- but app spots are usually the 'last to go' on an app grey, meaning the horse may be all white with charcoal looking spots on its hips for some time. The skin under the white hair on a greyed-out app spotted horse will still show its spotted pattern.

LP roan by itself never makes app spots completely fade to white-- it affects the base color, often revealing MORE spots, as if they were 'under' the darker coat.

LP roans who started out a non-diluted baser color usually have noticeably mottled pink/black or dark grey skin around the eyes, lips, under the tail/between the hind legs, and sometimes in the armpit and groin area and other areas of the body.

Grey horses which started out a solid non-diluted color will have black or dark grey skin all over under their white hair, except where normal white face/leg markings originally were. There is a depigmentating condition called vitiglio which affects some aging greys which resembles LP mottling, but it is relatively uncommon.

LP is not a mutation of grey-- they are located on different genes in different areas of the equine genome.
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    10-19-2011, 10:31 AM
  #20
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastowest    
LP roaning tends to work from the hips and back forward and downward, while greying tends to work from the head and barrel backward and upward...LP roaning typically leaves definite 'varnish marks'-- remaining base-colored areas over the bony prominences-- nasal ridges, point of shoulder and hip, knees and hocks. LP roans may, less commonly, show some dappling or fleabiting as well.
Those are key points as there is often confusion whether an Appy is grey in addition to being a varnish roan. One is back to front, and the other is front to back. Of course if the Appy is both varnish and grey, the race is on...
     

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