Was the "Celtic pony" a Caspian - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #11 of 15 Old 07-02-2013, 07:32 AM Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 15
• Horses: 0
I would not even say "ancestors" to them and here is why, the horse in Bronze Age Ireland and Britain was very rare and they were even rare on these islands in the Iron Age.

"The ancient horse remains were all grouped in haplogroup A. There was a major clustering when the ancient sequences were compared to the modern sequences; this suggests that the ancient sequences did not reflect the distribution of the modern day horse populations. This can then imply that an ancient haplogroup has been lost during evolution.

By Katelyn Belz"
Terrier Man is offline  
Sponsored Links
post #12 of 15 Old 07-02-2013, 08:49 AM
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 203
• Horses: 0
Isn't that more or less what I said when I put forward the suggestion that a branch of equines descending from the universal ancestor was present in the UK during the early Bronze Age, but died out? That might explain why the earliest remains so far discovered don't appear to relate to any breed alive today. Caspian horses have skeletal anomalies that would be apparent, even if DNA typing was not possible.

You keep referring to the height and build of the animals of that age and that only a Caspian horse would fit the description. Pick a modern horse breed and take a look at a photo of one just a hundred or so years ago and see how much physical change can potentially take place through selective breeding. Same goes for dogs, cows, etc.

Once again, I'm not disputing your theory.
MissingStar is offline  
post #13 of 15 Old 07-02-2013, 04:02 PM Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 15
• Horses: 0
I wonder did they die out or were they hybridised out of existence ?

Pick a modern horse breed and take a look at a photo of one just a hundred or so years ago and see how much physical change can potentially take place through selective breeding. Same goes for dogs, cows, etc.
All of the ones that I can think of have only changed because they have been mixed with other breeds of livestock.

What is known about the real Tarpan could be written on the back of a postage stamp a disgrace. A lot of what is written is fake and the only picture on the net looks like a domestic horse or a hybrid.

Have scientists not even done a reconstruction of what the Tarpan looked like from all the bone material that they have ?
Terrier Man is offline  
post #14 of 15 Old 07-03-2013, 06:02 AM
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 203
• Horses: 0
In the '60s and '70s my Grandpa kept German Shepherd Dogs. Loved the breed and was an avid collector of historical records, pictures, etc. The GSD, say, of the 1920's was a well-built dog with a straight back and a leg at each corner. Then, for no other reason than aesthetics, it was decided that a more sloping back was desirable. So that's what they bred for. Decades later we ended up with show dogs with this exaggerated posture, weak spines, hip dysplasia and back legs camped out yonder. Still GSDs, no other breed infusion, but skeletally different.

Pugs in 17th century art show a dog longer in both leg and muzzle. They are a very ancient breed. Their genes have been introduced to other breeds, but not vice versa. Then along came the fashion for dogs shorter in both leg and muzzle. They put the most extreme specimens of the breed to eachother and continued on until we get the pug as we recognize it today. Again, no other breed involvement.

I am using dogs as an example because the physical changes are so visual and dramatic. Obviously, changes occur more quickly in a species which can produce more than one offspring per year and which matures early. However, my point remains valid. If physical change can occur within a breed in the space of 200 years, how much could potentially arise in 2,000 years, with or without human intervention. I would not expect an animal of two centuries ago to be an exact carbon copy of what we recognise today. Could be shorter, narrower, longer-legged, who can say?

Anyway, back to business! I recently read an article that might be of interest to you, Eddie. It regarded Phoenician traders and how they may have been responsible for introducing "ponies" to the West Country over 2,000 years BC. I think they used the term "ponies" because of the height of the animals. They traded them for Cornish/Devon metals and these became the animals we know as Exmoor and Dartmoor ponies. Both breeds became isolated and evolved separately to adapt to their different environments. The Phoenicians did not breed the ponies/horses themselves but traded with the Bedouin who, as we know, were master horse breeders.

If that was proven to be the case, perhaps I can take you to task for that dig at Dartmoors. They didn't just pitch up to the mineshaft one Medieval morning looking for work, you know. Logic dictates that there had to have been an evolutionary starting point earlier than that!
Missy May likes this.
MissingStar is offline  
post #15 of 15 Old 07-03-2013, 08:34 AM
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: The land of Enchantment
Posts: 8,318
• Horses: 0
I always question "DNA studies to date indicate" when comes to comparing the DNA of ancient anything to that of current anything. The DNA sample from the "ancient" being how reliable? And, the fragment "length"?
For example, my appx has every "characteristic" of an akhal teke, which is thought to be one of the oldest horse breeds. There is no genetic testing available to confirm my suspicions. I spent quite a bit of time trying to determine if some reliable form of testing exists. So far, there appears to be none. Yet, what modern day horse breed is a descendant of a given "ancient" horse breed can be? It would be a little difficult to believe any current breed escaped some infusion from other breeds over hundreds of years such that mitochondria DNA would be expected to remain unchanged. IMO, it would boil down to measuring to what degree current breed x is a direct descend of ancient breed y. That does not appear to be measurable to any real degree of accuracy for most breeds.

There is just as much horse sense as ever, but the horses have most of it.
Missy May is offline  

Quick Reply

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

Already have a Horse Forum account?
Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

New to the Horse Forum?
Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.

User Name:
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:


Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.

Old Thread Warning
This thread is more than 90 days old. When a thread is this old, it is often better to start a new thread rather than post to it. However, If you feel you have something of value to add to this particular thread, you can do so by checking the box below before submitting your post.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Shamrock "Celtic Treasure" sarahkgamble Horse Pictures 6 11-11-2011 07:02 PM
"My pony and me" by "Don West" Barbarosa Horse Stories and Poems 1 07-21-2008 08:03 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome