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color genetics help please!

This is a discussion on color genetics help please! within the Horse Breeds forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category
  • Poa pony color genes
  • Minimal tobiano with ermine marks

 
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    04-26-2009, 07:54 AM
  #11
Weanling
POA is a Pony Of America

I havent seen pictures of his dam Wish we could see them. IMO he is pinto but he's minimally marked. And easy way to know would be to pull some mane hair and send them to be tested for Tobiano.

Here is my minimally marked Tobiano that everyone told me I was nuts when I knew he was Tobiano. Pulled hair and yep he's tested Positive for Tobiano. He also carries splash but is LW negative.



And yes shawneen Splash is considered Overo or pinto. As said it could be Sabino causing the leg white but they arent usually that high. I really do feel the spot could be a tobiano marking but wish we could see it closer

I could definitely be wrong on the Tobiano but doubt I am on the splash. The only reason he might not be tobi is because the leg markings arent as jagged as normal Tobi markings

Most do not like to mix pinto and appy genes because it muddies the water and makes it really hard to tell what marking is what. It also makes it very hard to predict what a horse will produce. I myself love pintalossas and have one in the pasture :)

East since there are so many minimally marked Tobianos out there that just have face white and stockings chances are they have registered a lot of minimal pintos :)
     
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    04-26-2009, 08:20 AM
  #12
Foal
He is a chestnut carrying the sabino gene (not tobiano) which will explain his white markings
     
    04-26-2009, 08:24 AM
  #13
Foal
I got this from a horse colour expert on another website

Sabino is thought to be polygenic - that means controlled by more than one gene. It can be expressed as minimally as one small ragged sock and a white chin, right through loud sabino (where markings are easily confused with some overo patterns) to maximum sabino, which appears white - occasionally with small spots.

There are several characteristics that sabinos show - in order to be classed as sabino, a horse must show at least two of the following;

On legs - ragged white socks or stockings, often ending in a point; knifeblade socks; partial socks or stockings; spots on the legs

On head/face - wide, irregular blaze; odd shaped white on face; lip spots; white chin; white spots under throat

On body - splashes of white on the belly, or extending up the flank or shoulder; odd white patches, especially 'lightning strike' markings; roaning, which can be a little on the belly or flank or cover the body and even head and legs.

Sabino is often better expressed on a red base - so often shows more on a chestnut (or even bay) coat than on black.

Tobiano is the gene responsible for what most of us know as coloured horses. It causes white patches on the base colour, and is what's called a 'simple dominant' - that means if a horse carries the tobiano gene, it will show tobiano colouring.

Tobianos usually have dark heads, white legs (up to the knee at least), white at the top of the dock and dark at the end, and can have ermine marks, spots, and roaning or bleeding of colour at the edges of patches. The spine is often white (although minimally marked tobianos sometimes have no more than a small patch of white on the neck or shoulder) and the flanks often dark.

Extreme white markings on the face are not down to tobiano, even when they appear on a tobiano horse - they are the result of another gene (or two!).
     
    04-26-2009, 12:13 PM
  #14
Weanling
Shawneen - AQHA would let him in IF he was pureblooded and pedigreed AQHA. They loosened their rules last year on markings. A little.
     
    04-26-2009, 02:47 PM
  #15
Weanling
Ahhhh good to know Qt - thanks for that.

Quote:
East since there are so many minimally marked Tobianos out there that just have face white and stockings chances are they have registered a lot of minimal pintos :)
That makes sense. Have had the genes hiding out and when they get a really LOUD colored POA they are like where did that come from? DENIED - which is kind of screwed!
     
    04-26-2009, 03:06 PM
  #16
Foal
I have pictures of his mom but they are on an old computer. She is very roaned if I remember right. And you can finds pics of his sire easily online, he's a POA champion, Incognito. And for the person who asked, POA is pony of the americas, usually made by crossing QH, Appys, sometimes arab, although my colt has no arab in his lines. They can top out at about 54", but can be taller, although that is a fault. They make great kids horses, and are fine for small adults, great tempermants, very versatile as well. Thanks for the replies. Oh and his white spot on his right side used to be more of a tan color, now the hairs are white, especially at the base.
     
    04-27-2009, 09:25 AM
  #17
Weanling
Really all any of us can do is guess from looking at the pictures. There is a ton of new information on Sabino coming out as they finally developed a test for it. But they are still working on refining it to get the test better. As this paragraph says some sabino horses will test negative even though they are obviously sabino. The second Sabino test is supposed to be coming out any day now.

But like I said my horse pictured above shows pretty clearly that there are probably a lot of Tobianos out there that are mistaken for solid/sabino horses.

Now if you ever breed him to a solid mare and get a tobi foal just don't call it a "cropout" LOL. *just a little humor

Sabino 1
Sabino is a generic description for a group of similar white spotting patterns. The sabino pattern is described as irregular spotting usually on the legs, belly and face, often with extensive roaning. A mutation has recently been discovered that produces one type of sabino pattern. It has been named Sabino1 as it is not present in all sabino-patterned horses. More mutations will probably be identified that account for other sabino patterns.
Sabino1 is inherited as an autosomal dominant mutation. One copy of the Sabino1 gene is expected to produce horses with two or more white legs or feet -- often with white running up the anterior part of the leg, an extensive blaze, spotting on the midsection, with jagged or roaned margins to the pattern. Horses with 2 copies of the Sabino1 gene, are at least 90% white and are referred to as Sabino-white.
Sabino1 is most commonly found in Tennessee Walking Horses. Other breeds in which this mutation has been found include: American Miniature Horses, American Paint Horses, Aztecas, Missouri Foxtrotters, Shetland Ponies, Spanish Mustangs and Pony of the Americas. Other breeds of horses that are known to have sabino patterns, such as Clydesdales and Arabians, have so far tested negative for the Sabino1 mutation, although the number of animals tested is low.
Sabino 1 results are reported as:
N/N No evidence of altered sequence detected. N/SB1 One copy of the Sabino1 gene detected. Horse typically may have 2 or more white legs, blaze, spots or roaning in the midsection and jagged margins around white areas. SB1/SB1 Two copies of the Sabino1 gene detected. Complete or nearly complete white phenotype expected. Reference: Brooks S.A. And Bailey E. Exon skipping in the KIT gene causes a Sabino spotting pattern in horses. Mammalian Genome 16:893-902, 2005.
     
    05-01-2009, 06:21 AM
  #18
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by weefoal    
POA is a Pony Of America
Thank you.
     
    05-02-2009, 12:19 AM
  #19
Weanling
Weefoal, your boy is darling, and I have followed your posts with interest, because years ago I knew of another "slipped tobiano"-- this one was a registered breeding stock paint mare who consistently produced loud tobiano-marked foals from a QH stallion. She had four white socks just above her knees and hocks, ermine spotting around her hooves, and the tip of her tail was white-- that was it.

Tobiano MIGHT be possible in this colt-- but I stand by my opinion that it would be very unlikely. Much of the POA, QH, and Appaloosa ancestry behind this colt is pretty well known, with lots of descendants out there, and there is not any tobiano popping up in these particular lines. Also all of these registries are closed/limited to known, registered lines (and no crossing allowed to registered Pintos or Paints), so there has not been much if any possibility of tobiano being introduced from either known nor even unknown/unregistered lines for many years.

There have also been restrictions (very recently relaxed in AQHA and ApHC) on expressed "excessive" white in all of these registries since the early days, and if a horse was known for producing unregisterable white markings, it didn't get used for breeding much if at all, since no one wanted to risk a crop of unregisterable babies..... and even a "slipped" Tobiano would have the potential to produce 50/50 unregisterable color... so that also makes it less likely that Tobiano has been travelling along in these registries/bloodlines.

Tobiano is Minis is pretty common and always registerable, so the presence of a slipped/miminal Tobiano in the Mini genepool is much more understandable.
     

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