Color gurus? - Page 3

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Color gurus?

This is a discussion on Color gurus? within the Horse Breeds forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category
  • Sooty palomino morgan
  • Sooty cremello horse

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    04-22-2010, 06:37 PM
Adding to my last post too.... You said someone told you once that he was "purebred palomino" which is silly, but if they knew he had palomino in his parentage, I.e. They meant he was bred from one or two palomino's, he truly could be a smokey black as a palomino would have a creme gene to pass on, no?
Cream doesn't dilute black, so if he were a smoky black, there would be black hairs somewhere in his coat that hadn't been affected, but I don't see any black hairs in the photos. Smoky blacks are normally all black, or only diluted around the flank, throat, etc.

Also, if he were out of two palominoes, I don't think he could have a black base, as Palomino is a red base, and two parents with a red base produce a red base (I think? Can't remember if e is dominant over black?).

I still think liver chestnut - I know a horse who is in between a liver and a chestnut and he has that real chrome sheen as well - Irridescence almost.

So I stick with my original guess - Liver chestnut with splash.
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    04-22-2010, 07:18 PM
Green Broke
I will lay a strong bet on 99% certainty of him being a sooty palomino. The fact that someone has indicated he is palomino, and the very blatant highlights in certain areas (look at some photos, you can see a smidge of goldish coloring on the inside of his legs, the edge of his flank, and even along his neck).

He is obviously red based - any sort of black or bay is completely out, along with brown I think. If I'm wrong, then he's a deep liver chestnut, but I've seen a few of these very rare sooty palominos and he's the spitting image.

Palomino bred to palomino can definitely produce a chestnut. The only way you'd avoid a chestnut is by breeding to a cremello (cremello X chestnut = palomino every time, cremello X palomino = palomino or cremello, cremello x cremello = cremello every time). So even if both parents were palomino, it would likely be impossible to determine his true color without a color test for cream. The only definitive way would be if you knew for sure one of his parents was cremello.
    04-22-2010, 07:42 PM
Out of curiosity - Can you get sooty cremello/perlino?
    04-22-2010, 07:47 PM
Green Broke
Originally Posted by wild_spot    
Out of curiosity - Can you get sooty cremello/perlino?
Most likely. Sooty is one of those weird genes that isn't fully understood yet - it seems to pop up out of nowhere, and it can drastically change colors as is evident from the sooty palomino Morgan that was posted. I don't believe it's been documented in double dilutes though, so it's possibly that something about the two cream genes removes the possibility of sooty to display physically. Sooty can be likened to flaxen on chestnuts, where we really have no idea when or why it happens.
    04-22-2010, 07:49 PM
Just had another look at the photos, and I still don't think he's a sooty palomino - Isn't sooty supposed to add black hairs through the coat? I don't see black hairs - Just brown/liver colouring.

All the pics of sooty palominoes i've seen tend to have more of a black tint because of the black hairs, eg:

    04-22-2010, 08:05 PM
Well a horse can't be a 'purebred palomino' anyway, given that pali's are a 'color' not a breed! I always chuckle inside when people make comments like that about pali's, duns, buckskins, etc, when those are COLORS...NOT breeds!!!! ROFL!!!!!

Anyway...well, without a color test, you may never really know what color he really is, especially if he goes through alot of seasonal changes. One of the horses I had up til a year ago, I believe was genetically black with dun factoring, but I never had him tested, so I'll never know, but he had alot of different color factors in him, that you never really could tell what he really was!!!
    04-22-2010, 08:06 PM
Green Broke
True. I supposed I shouldn't say he's most likely palomino, but given the information the OP has already received about him, it's entirely possible. Photos of sooty pals:

Sooty definitely doesn't always display physically as black tint.
    04-22-2010, 08:15 PM
It definitely is a conundrum - If you get him tested, please let us know, would be interesting to see which guesses are correct!
    04-22-2010, 08:56 PM
I know a horse who, colour-wise, looks a lot like your guy. He also has one blue eye, a stripe and gold-ish highlights. Both his parents are registered black (his father is non-fading I don't know about his mother) and I'm pretty sure he was born dark.

This is him this past summer, he was soaking wet but you can see his highlights:
Picture 039.jpg

And this was a month or so ago in his winter woolies, shows some of his other highlights:
Picture 494.jpg

He is a purebred Canadien horse, chances are he's registered as plain old bay, brown, or black. Not likely as chestnut because both his parents were black. I wish I had a full body picture of him for comparison, but I don't.
    04-22-2010, 11:16 PM
If both of the parents are palomino then he could be either a palomino or a chestnut (since he clearly doesn't have a cream gene). Palominos are ee/aa or Aa or AA/nCr, meaning they always pass down the red factor gene. I would say he is a sooty palomino because of those really like patches on his legs and by his muzzle.

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