European Warmblood registries
 
 

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European Warmblood registries

This is a discussion on European Warmblood registries within the Horse Breeds forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category
  • Hanoverian vs. oldenburg
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    12-18-2011, 02:51 PM
  #1
Banned
European Warmblood registries

I liked what Maura posted and while she is almost spot on there are some differences that would be nice to explore. Many in NA don't understand how the various registries got started in Europe and I am hoping we can have a sane discussion on their founding.

I am not starting this thread to discuss the NA foundling registries like the AWR or AWS but specifically the European registries.

Now I am not so familiar with the Dutch or Swedish so most of my posts will be directed at what I researched which are the German ones like the Hanoverian, Oldenburg, Westphalia etc.

The Trakheners are a separate but important part also.

Here is Maura's post that was an interesting post in that at least she realized that we must all have to start somewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maura    
I learned some interesting things in this thread.

I hope I can comment on them without derailing the thread again.

I have always understood how the European Warmblood registries worked, and frankly admired them, both for their willingness to allow horses to be in multiple registries if each of the registries agrees that the horse has desirable traits, and the rigorous testing a horse must undergo to be approved breeding stock.

But I never really thought about the difference between registered and approved before. So if I were starting a registry and was trying to breed for a certain type, it makes sense to register as many horses as I possibly can - all I'm doing is collecting information in a database (bloodlines and traits, genotype and phenotype) , and frankly, collecting money from people who want to register their horses and have another venue in which to compete. Particularly in the case of geldings, the quality of the animal registered isn't all that material.

Now, when it comes to APPROVAL, ie, approved as breeding stock, and representative of what you want to acheive in a breeding program, that's critical. You need to be as rigorous as possible in what stock you approve to breed, the more rigorous you are, the sooner you will have an indentifiable type.

I really don't know anything about the AWS, but it seems to me that criticizing them for registering less than stellar horses is completely beside the point. The real litmus test of their value as a registry is the quality of the horse they approve for breeding.

I suspect that when the European warmblood registries first opened, the followed a similiar strategy - register everything, including Draft types and TBS, record their pedigrees and key traits, but only approve for breeding the horses that have the characteristics or the traits the registry deems desirable. Makes sense to start off that way.

It will still be decades before the AWS produces a recognizable type, but hey, the German warmblood registries have been around for centuries, right?

.
     
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    12-18-2011, 02:56 PM
  #2
Green Broke
Subbing, and helping were possible with my limited knowledge Great thread idea Spyder!
     
    12-18-2011, 04:00 PM
  #3
Foal
The BWP registry excists since 1937.
The brothers Deuss imported the Hannover stallions Flügel and Lugano.
Mercel van Dijck imported the Holsteiner stallion Codex.
They also imported mares from different races to breed and they bred on performance.
The BWP is characterized not by uniformity of coat color,appearance or pedigree chart but by uniformity of purpose.
There was no indigenious warmblood mare base so they used warmblood mares from other regestries.There was no use of draft stallion or mares.
Holsteiner,Rheinland,Dutch Warmblood,Rhinelander,Thoroughbreds,Oldenburg stallions were used.

The BWP society is devided in two parts depending on the two parts of Belgium.
In the south of belgium there was the SBS,the Belgian Sporthorse Registration.
In the north of belgium the BWP.
The goal of the SBS was to breed an army horse but now they aren't that different from the BWP.The BWP uses SBS stallions and vice versa.
     
    12-18-2011, 04:15 PM
  #4
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laures    
The BWP registry excists since 1937.
The brothers Deuss imported the Hannover stallions Flügel and Lugano.
Mercel van Dijck imported the Holsteiner stallion Codex.
They also imported mares from different races to breed and they bred on performance.
The BWP is characterized not by uniformity of coat color,appearance or pedigree chart but by uniformity of purpose.
There was no indigenious warmblood mare base so they used warmblood mares from other regestries.There was no use of draft stallion or mares.
Holsteiner,Rheinland,Dutch Warmblood,Rhinelander,Thoroughbreds,Oldenburg stallions were used.

The BWP society is devided in two parts depending on the two parts of Belgium.
In the south of belgium there was the SBS,the Belgian Sporthorse Registration.
In the north of belgium the BWP.
The goal of the SBS was to breed an army horse but now they aren't that different from the BWP.The BWP uses SBS stallions and vice versa.
I understand that they didn't have the mare base that Germany had and they developed a little different. I believe they will accept non warmbloods if they are of the right type and I think (correct me if I am wrong here) they looked at specific NA breeds to get the desired type...maybe you could expand on the newer blood they added and whether it worked out or was abandoned.

Germany is a land based culture and they had a mare base. What they didn't have in the beginning was a horse developed for war and general riding. The closest they had was the carriage type but it in itself was not quite suitable.

Germany was also separated into different areas like Hanover, Westphalia etc. where each developed a DIFFERENT type based on what the overseer of that area wanted. That is why some stallions can be seen in the pedigrees of more than one registry. Getting the right stallion to match or improve that area to what was wanted involved a lot of stallions servicing more than one area.

So the warmblood in Germany is not a breed but a population TYPE based on the whims of the person in charge of that area.
     
    12-18-2011, 04:28 PM
  #5
Trained
My horse was bred in NA, but is branded, approved and registered Swedish. His sire is Hanoverian and his dam is Danish, both also approved by the Swedish studbook. The sire by being Hanoverian (basically) and the dam through approval and achievement.
His daughter is also branded Swedish and approved.

Swedish is not a tough book to register with if you have a horse with good bloodlines but is not eligible for other books - in my boys case the Hanoverian book would not take him because of his dams breeding.
That's my experience with Swedish WBs ..
Posted via Mobile Device
     
    12-18-2011, 11:06 PM
  #6
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
My horse was bred in NA, but is branded, approved and registered Swedish. His sire is Hanoverian and his dam is Danish, both also approved by the Swedish studbook. The sire by being Hanoverian (basically) and the dam through approval and achievement.
His daughter is also branded Swedish and approved.

Swedish is not a tough book to register with if you have a horse with good bloodlines but is not eligible for other books - in my boys case the Hanoverian book would not take him because of his dams breeding.
That's my experience with Swedish WBs ..
Posted via Mobile Device
Very much like what you would expect. The Hanoverian was the most influential of all the types and is routinely found in the pedigree of virtually all registries except French and Dutch.

Since Germany was built by a series of wars and a standing army was important. Each area held its own "army" so to speak and to expand that army reliance on the agricultural population was imperative. So what better way to get their co operation than to offer incentives to produce the best quality military equine product. Each area knew what they wanted but to get there involved the crossing of the best stallions with the mare base available and since the mare base was large the importation of thorourbreds to lighten or adjust they type could easily be done.

Each region had different goals and also a different mare base so while the aim was the same, certain areas became more known for a heavier type..others for a lighter type. Also the associations that governed each area had biases that was directed to a more jumper type, dressage type or all around type and this showed up when the foals were inspected at age three.

This also meant that if a prospect didn't fit into the registry it was born into it could be taken to a different area and inspected there. This is probably the most confusing to NA in that a Hanoverian by birth can end up being a Westphalian by registry and that horse would be producing or giving birth to a Westphalian because WHERE THE FOAL IS BORN will be its first designation. And if that stallion serviced an Oldenburg mare then the foal would be Oldenburg.

This would be like us saying we have a Montana WB..a Ohio WB..a Utah WB and wherever the foal was born..say Florida it would become a Florida WB even if the sire was registered and approved California WB. All this even if that one stallion serviced a mare from all the states mentioned above each of the foals would all be in different registries ( in this scenario..different states).

It does get confusing...LOL
     
    12-19-2011, 02:28 AM
  #7
Foal
[QUOTE]Since Germany was built by a series of wars and a standing army was important.

Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-bree...xdf7KVP/QUOTE]

This is very correct, but most of the "breeding books" where founded in the 15. Hundreds (or before) Where Germany was still far from being a country at all. They were breeding better farm horses with the help of the "Landesgestüte" most of which still exists.
The "Sport horses" as we know them today where bred for being sport horses. That really got started after the second world war.

The warhorses where a much heavier type. In Germany they sometimes refer to a "Commandants Pferd" (Commanders Horse), when there talking of a heavier set type of warmbood.

There is a big difference in the registries in Germany. Hannoveraner are a very type A horse. As someone posted in another thread it might be easier to recognize one then a horse registered as a Rheinläner (Rheinisches Warmblut) or Bayerisches Warmblut (know registered with the Süddeutsche Zuchtverband), because they are able to take the best of the best. If you have a great horse that has Hannoverainien (sp ?) bloodlines, you will/should try to have it registered as a Hannoveraner. The guidelines aren't as strict in other breeding books.

There are still some years where almost no stallions are approved, in all registries (Can't be so picky about mares, as you need a solid mare base).

Also many of the old breeds have been lost. For instance the Bavarian horse was pretty much ruined after the second world war, because they tried to get the sporthorse type of horse to quickly (by refining systematically, they erased lots of favorable treats that took hundreds of years to breed. They are now trying to get a type back.

I think it's pretty funny to hear how a lot of people in Germany scoff (sp?) at the registries of Süddeutschland /Rheinland-Pfalz-Saar/ Deutsches Sportpferd (this is also a registry! I think in another thread somebody had misunderstood that)

Still I think any horse that is registered to breed here is pretty amazing...

Oh and it's Westfale (with f!) a registry that didn't open in till sometime during the 19th century. (Upps, just noticed that the english spelling is with "ph". Sorry.. my bad for being a smarty-pants )
     
    12-19-2011, 11:22 AM
  #8
Foal
In the old days when the BWB breeding just started they weren't allowed to use drafts.
Especially not the Belgian drafts because the Belgian Draft breeders were afraid they would 'contaminate' the blood of the excisting Belgian Draft population.

They had to import stallions and mares from other WB regestries and countries because they had to start from scratch.
     

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