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Indian War Pony

This is a discussion on Indian War Pony within the Horse Breeds forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category
  • Markings on indian war ponies
  • Sitting bulls war horse breeders

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    05-22-2012, 10:31 AM
  #11
Foal
There are several good books such as "Black Elk Speaks" that talks of various tribes' horses and how they care for the horses.
     
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    05-22-2012, 03:22 PM
  #12
Started
Some of these tribe horses were turned into a specific breed. Like Sitting Bull's herd was turned into the Nokota in the 1980's. They are mixed breed horses with also a lot of spanish descent. Some I believe are gated too. Like mine (i have one) will mature to be about 15h, and has white sclera around her eyes, hinting at appaloosa way back in her genes. But her smooth gaits and amble are probably spanish
     
    05-23-2012, 09:51 PM
  #13
Foal
Actually there is NO proof that Sitting Bull's horses turned into Nokotas. Before you quote McLaughlin's 1989 report, find the page it is on.
Also the Nokota was founded in 1999.
     
    05-25-2012, 04:18 PM
  #14
Started
From the homepage of the Nokota Horse Conservancy website: "Foundation Nokotas were removed directly from the park, primarily during the 1980s and early 1990s. Many of the foundation stallions and mares, which formed the nucleus of the breed, are now deceased. Their offspring are termed “Foundation-bred” Nokotas.
On the advice of Dr. Phillip Sponenberg, the Foundation and Foundation-bred horses have been differentiated into two phenotypic categories, National Park Traditionals and National Park Ranch types (See “Nokota® type”). The conservancy manages a small herd of mostly traditional, but also of ranch-type foundation horses (approximately 75 in 2009) in order to maintain as much of the original spectrum of Foundation bloodlines as possible. Many of the foundation-bred ranch horses are owned by the Kuntz family."
     
    05-25-2012, 04:23 PM
  #15
Started
It also says it is believed by some that they are descendants of sitting bulls herd, and I also have a book that says they are. And preservation of the breed started in the 80's
     
    05-25-2012, 05:42 PM
  #16
Foal
It is a wonderful story but only a story. The Nokota Horse Conservancy and the Kuntzs are one and the same. They have a great story but no facts.

If you talk to Dr. Phillip Sponenberg - he only looked at them. NO TEST - NO FACTS - just took a look and said they look like what the Kuntzs/ NHC said they could be.

Just an example, the Park herd was down to 25 horses in 1962 and 16 horses in the 1965. How did Sitting Bulls horses get in there?
Was one of the 16, one of his???

The Park is fenced and any stray horse is shot on sight by the Park Rangers.

McLaughlin's report (which the Kuntz/NHC use to claim were Sitting Bull's horses) states on page 236 "The free-roaming horses at THRP are descended from horses that inhabited the Little Missouri Badlands when the Park was created in 1947. Thoses horses were of two types: domestic ranch stock and "wild" unclaimed animals." Both have been present in the badlands since at least 1880."

Maybe upto a million horses were driven into the Badlands starting in approx. 1830's and continued into the 1930's. There were many horses rounded up and shipped via train (the entire train) to the east for slaughter.

Again, a great story but no facts.
     
    05-26-2012, 03:46 PM
  #17
Started
It's not all looks either. It's their brains and abilities. Also Nokotas are of some spanish descent, in which these horses also wound up on ranches and were widely sought after. And the national park doesn't shoot horses on sight anymore, they have a band of 'heritage' horses that are not actually the original horses now. But what they had done in the past was shoot the herd stallions and replace them with horses like thoroughbreds and clydesdales to 'improve' them. And it's a fact that these horses are of spanish descent and they are what Sitting Bulls horses are described to be
     
    05-26-2012, 04:07 PM
  #18
Foal
You are wrong in a number of areas. The National Park shot 2 horses within the past couple of years.

"past was shoot the herd stallions and replace them with horses like thoroughbreds and clydesdales to 'improve' " That was an attempt that did not work - last only about 3 years and the stallions were removed - it is well document.

"it's a fact that these horses are of spanish descent and they are what Sitting Bulls horses are described to be" Actually it is not a fact and no proof.

Have someone do an "Ancestral DNA" on your Nokota. Several have had that done.
As an example of a Nokota Traditional 100% foundation from the Kuntz's herd: Primary breed – Eastern Warmblood, 2nd breed – Irish and 3rd Quarter horse.

We will end this discussion because you have their story and beleive it.

The horse is a great horse.

The NHC was started in 1999 but did not own a horse until 2004. All were owned by the Kuntzs and today most still are owned by them.

The story was sold very well, but again there are no facts to base the NHC/Kuntz's story. But do beleive the story - they need the money as they have not had a job for many years - -except collecting $$ from people that beleive their story.
     
    05-26-2012, 04:11 PM
  #19
Started
Okay. But to point out some have smanish things about them, and almost all cowy horses in north ameirica are because of spanish descent somewhere
     
    05-29-2012, 04:03 PM
  #20
Started
I just wanted to let you know, there's a group on facebook for the nokota horse conservancy, and I asked what ppl thought about what you said about the Kuntz's... A couple people said they know them directly and have known them for many years, and they did not make up anything about their horses. It is not proven directly that they are Sitting Bull descendants, but they deffinitely are Plains tribes horses with a lot of spanish influence. There's a lot of primitive markings, and I learned that the white sclera arounnd hotrse's eyes don't just occur in Appys and their descendants, but also Spanish horses. My horse has it. The Ki=untz also use all their money on their horses and barely get by for themselves. They would be far better off without them. Also there was a park ranger who realized the mistake of shooting these horses and I believe has since stopped it. I think if it were still going on there'd be a big dispute with the BLM, and you'd hear about it in the local news...

Quote:
Originally Posted by walkwavy    
You are wrong in a number of areas. The National Park shot 2 horses within the past couple of years.

"past was shoot the herd stallions and replace them with horses like thoroughbreds and clydesdales to 'improve' " That was an attempt that did not work - last only about 3 years and the stallions were removed - it is well document.

"it's a fact that these horses are of spanish descent and they are what Sitting Bulls horses are described to be" Actually it is not a fact and no proof.

Have someone do an "Ancestral DNA" on your Nokota. Several have had that done.
As an example of a Nokota Traditional 100% foundation from the Kuntz's herd: Primary breed – Eastern Warmblood, 2nd breed – Irish and 3rd Quarter horse.

We will end this discussion because you have their story and beleive it.

The horse is a great horse.

The NHC was started in 1999 but did not own a horse until 2004. All were owned by the Kuntzs and today most still are owned by them.

The story was sold very well, but again there are no facts to base the NHC/Kuntz's story. But do beleive the story - they need the money as they have not had a job for many years - -except collecting $$ from people that beleive their story.
     

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