My somewhat philosophical/angry rant on breed racism - Page 6
   

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My somewhat philosophical/angry rant on breed racism

This is a discussion on My somewhat philosophical/angry rant on breed racism within the Horse Breeds forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category

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        10-21-2013, 01:15 PM
      #51
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kayty    
    Looks like my old fresh ottb didn't get the memo about being hot-headed and a hard keeper. He was the quietest thing I've had the pleasure of owning, and got fat off the whiff of an oily rag ;)
    LOL, that's why I said 'tend to bend'. I know not all are, just the majority I have come across.
         
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        10-21-2013, 04:41 PM
      #52
    Foal
    There's so many good points here but I'll put it into human terms. Let's take a professional carpenter and a football player, ignore their race, and simply look at their jobs.

    Cody Carpenter can build you whatever you want, with whatever wood you want, in whatever size you want, and make it pretty. Cody C plays football with his friends, and he's definitely an enthusiast for the sport, but that's about it. Freddy Football Player can run faster than you, throw farther than you, take tackles better than you, and trains more than you'd ever want to in one week, in the course of one day. Sure, he builds birdhouses in his spare time, but no one said they were professionally done. It's just a hobby.

    Boil that down to "blood-lines" as you would if you were purchasing a horse, or these two mens' services. Cody C's family has been in the carpentry business for the last century. He comes from a long line of well-educated men that are known for their beautiful carvings and creations. You might say wood-chips run through his blood and sawdust feeds his imagination. That is his bloodline. That is what he was "bred" to do. (For the sake of this example, I pull inspiration off of someone I knew who claimed to be born and bred for carpentry.)

    Freddy Football Player comes from a different spectrum. His bloodlines may not have been proven football players in the years before he was born, but the people in his family were superior at running, catching and throwing compared to the other families around them. He's a diamond in the rough, but he's predisposed to being better at football than say, professional carpentry.

    Now, you're looking through these guys' carpentry portfolios and you're considering buying their services to make you a custom built bed-frame. Freddy F's portfolio is cute. It's got some decent bird-houses and a stick project he helped his child with. Cody C's portfolio is impressive, it displays elaborate work on various wooden projects, including bed-frames and custom-build dressers. Consider this portfolio part of the mens' pedigrees and bloodlines. In the end, you choose Cody C's services over Freddy F's services. Why? Because when it comes down to it, carpentry is what Cody was meant to do and what he excels at, whereas Freddy F just enjoys the aspect of working with his hands.

    Does that make you "breed" racist toward Freddy F? No. It doesn't. It shows that you took the time and carefully chose the person you were going to invest time and money into to get the best bed-frame for your money. You chose between two options; someone excellent at carpentry compared to a hobby-joe just looking to make a few bucks off of his developing skills.

    Now say you're trying to get a famous football player to come to your son's party - your first thought is going to be with Freddy F, right? Because he already has the two major components that you need. 1) He's famous and 2) he's a professional football player. Best of both worlds. Sure, Cody C is great at playing with his friends! But it's not how he makes a living and therefore, it doesn't suit your personal needs. Are you "breed" racist in this scenario? No. You're not.

    Apply the finesse that Cody C needs to that of a Warmblood or a Thoroughbred and the brute force/strength that Freddy F needs to that of a QH or a Paint. You want dressage and you want to go to the highest levels? You're looking for a proven Thoroughbred/Warmblood, with a good line behind it, that's got the means to take you where you want to go. Its ancestors were all high-achieving horses, it itself has major potential. Are you breed racist? No. You're realistically looking at answers to your demand.

    You want to go on the rodeo circuit, calf ropin' and barrel racing? You're looking for a proven QH with the pedigree and bloodlines to take you where you want to go. Its ancestors are all proven, have all had miles put on them and won buckles, it's been selectively bred to have good hind-quarters with the desired gaits, strides, and temperaments. Are you breed racist? No. You're realistically looking at answers for your demands.

    Is anyone else who realistically looks to lineage and pedigree to determine whether or not they want a horse or what they can do with that horse a breed racist? No. They're looking for realistic answers to their demands. Are the people who flaunt good pedigrees and bloodlines in your face breed racist? Sure, some of them can be. Some might just be snotty and want to have the best of the best in the eyes of everyone else (those folks never tend to be happy.) Are they worth getting worked up over? No, not really. You like your horse, correct? Go on with that knowledge and let idiots be idiots.

    Every horse can do any job given to it, just like Cody C can play football with his friends and Freddy F can build his birdhouses. Not every horse can excel at ever job its given. Just like Freddy F may never become a professional carpenter and Cody C will never become a professional football player. Horses were bred with a sole purpose, breeds were created to generalize a group of horses sharing the exact qualities of one another and in order to identify what that group of horses was best at and most desirable for.

    Pedigrees were made in order for humans to look back at a general history of the horse's ancestors and get a gist of what that horse was good at and whether or not that horse has any use in that person's lifestyle choices. It doesn't mean that the horse itself is useless if one person turns it down because the horse has no purpose being in that one person's life, it just means that the horse is an unrealistic purchase for that particular person. I wouldn't go out and buy a draft horse because a draft horse's skills are useless in my world. I'm not extremely overweight so I don't need a big horse to haul me around. I don't drive carts or plow fields so I don't need something that can pull something heavy. Does that mean that I'm a breed racist? No. I'm not. I like draft breeds, they're pretty and they make for good eye-candy, they're sweet, gentle, and they have their uses to those who need them. But for me personally they have no use or place in my world. So I'm not going to own one or buy one.

    And no, a pedigree shouldn't be the sole defining factor in a horse's price tag, and the amount of money spent on a horse shouldn't define how "good" that horse is. It has to prove itself, its ground manners, and it has to find it foothold in the world. But it does play a key role in helping a prospective buyer determine whether it'd even fit the purpose the owner has for a horse.

    Remember, they're not cozy little house pets no matter how much we love on them or want them to be our "bestest buddies," they were domesticated so that they could work for humans, doing tasks such as hauling buggies and carts, plowing fields, carting around their handlers or dead carcasses, or whatever else their job is. They have to have a job (even something as monotonous as lessoning students) and every job has a pedigree or bloodline associated with it. Naturally, there's going to be some judgements passed and generalizations made. Nobody is going to force you to purchase a horse with a ridiculously high price tag that stems only from bloodline, either. So if it really upsets you that much, just walk right by. :)

    (PS sorry for the novella. Lol. Cookies if you read this all.)
         
        10-22-2013, 04:41 PM
      #53
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trailhorserider    
    My first and second horses were Arabians. I go so tired of people telling me how "crazy" Arabians were. It really grated on my nerves. But I came to peace with it when I realized that the people who were trashing them were afraid of their own horses and hardly ever rode. My Arabians carried me through city streets to trails on a local mountain preserve......mostly riding alone. And they took really good care of me because I was a total beginner who never had lessons.

    So I came to realize that the trash talkers never did half the stuff with their horses as I did with my Arabians, so who were they to talk?

    Breed prejudice still bothers me though. Like everyone hates on grade horses and for what I do.......trail ride, it's the HORSE that matters, nothing else. I have had purebreds and grades. Currently a BLM Mustang, a registered Fox Trotter and her 3 yr old 1/2 QH son. Guess who's the most trustworthy out on the trails? The Mustang. He is the master of the trails and no million dollar horse could do any better for MY purposes. So when people bash on grades it bothers me because a set of papers means nothing when it comes to actually riding a horse out in the real world. I can trail ride with just about anyone on any horse and never be outclassed on my Mustang. That is HIS area of specialty.

    Unless you are very specialized in a specific discipline (and probably showing), temperment and training are more important for the average rider, IMO.
    Sorry but when it comes to Arabs they have more then their fair share of nutters. I am not scared of my horses, exactly the opposite in fact. However when I owned and showed an Arab, my lad was lovely but I would not have got on over 70 % of the other horses in that showring. In the 1970s in the uk the Arab was the most popular an versatile breed, then they started breeding skinny legged dippy headed morons who didn't have enough space for their brains. This resulted in a severe decline in versitility and popularity of the breed. Recently there has been a movement back to the more useful Arab that is very intelligent.
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        10-22-2013, 05:02 PM
      #54
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by faye    
    Sorry but when it comes to Arabs they have more then their fair share of nutters. I am not scared of my horses, exactly the opposite in fact. However when I owned and showed an Arab, my lad was lovely but I would not have got on over 70 % of the other horses in that showring. In the 1970s in the uk the Arab was the most popular an versatile breed, then they started breeding skinny legged dippy headed morons who didn't have enough space for their brains. This resulted in a severe decline in versitility and popularity of the breed. Recently there has been a movement back to the more useful Arab that is very intelligent.
    Posted via Mobile Device
    And that is true with most breeds - which is why papers, or at least knowing the ancestry, is important when selecting a horse (assuming, of course, that one has knowledge of bloodlines).

    We have bred such overspecialized bloodlines in most breeds that it becomes difficult to even call some breeds a breed because there is such a huge variance in conformation and ability within the "breed", depending upon whatever discipline a bloodline is manipulated to excel at...
    dbarabians likes this.
         
        10-22-2013, 05:31 PM
      #55
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by faye    
    Sorry but when it comes to Arabs they have more then their fair share of nutters. I am not scared of my horses, exactly the opposite in fact. However when I owned and showed an Arab, my lad was lovely but I would not have got on over 70 % of the other horses in that showring. In the 1970s in the uk the Arab was the most popular an versatile breed, then they started breeding skinny legged dippy headed morons who didn't have enough space for their brains. This resulted in a severe decline in versitility and popularity of the breed. Recently there has been a movement back to the more useful Arab that is very intelligent.
    Posted via Mobile Device
    I have no experience with show Arabs. And I'm sure mine were culls from someone's breeding program. They weren't super typey like you would see in the show ring. But they were very sane and sensible. They were my first and second horses and I had never had a professional lesson (until recently, almost 20 years later). I am also a chicken by nature. So, I don't know what to tell you, but there ARE incredibly wonderful, sane Arabians out there. One that can be trusted with a beginner out on the trails with no previous lessons on the beginner's part.

    There are nutters in all breeds. I have seen some Quarter Horses I wouldn't trust. And a Paint that was probably the worst horse I have ever bought (she didn't stay around for long). But on Arabians, I am 2 for 2 with owning wonderful horses!

    Also, with Arabians in the show ring, they seem to like to have them fired up and "hot." I remember in the 80's going out to Arabian farms on Sunday afternoons for their public showings and they encouraged the horses to prance and show off......with fire extinguishers, plastic bags on whips, etc. In other words, part of the firey attitude of the show horses comes from training. They weren't training for calmness, they were training for flash and presence. A calm attitude wasn't being rewarded or trained for in those horses.
         
        10-22-2013, 05:32 PM
      #56
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Faceman    
    And that is true with most breeds - which is why papers, or at least knowing the ancestry, is important when selecting a horse (assuming, of course, that one has knowledge of bloodlines).
    I have never bought a horse based on papers. Some of my horses come with papers, some don't. But that never factored into my decision. I buy a horse based on the horse in front of me......training, disposition, etc.
         
        10-22-2013, 05:40 PM
      #57
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AQHSam    
    ...The owner buys a border collie. And not just ANY border collie. One that comes from agility proven breeding. Because this next dog is not so much a family pet; it is an investment in ribbons...


    Well, not entirely off-topic. But Border Collies were bred to herd, and it took a lot of work to develop a dog who could single-handed bring 100+ sheep off a hillside a mile away - something a friend's dog will do, and why he now believes a Border Collie is more valuable than 6 human sheepherders. To throw those generations of selection away and turn one into a dog who is just agile...arghhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    And it isn't entirely off-topic, because horse breeds, like dog breeds, are selected for a purpose. I like my Arabian mare and really would like to someday enter her in a local barrel racing competition...at our current rate of progress, maybe when she is 20. But she has long legs meant for stretching out and going miles. We're working on turns, but nothing in her build is suitable for making tight turns around a barrel. In fact, being a stereotypical Arabian mare, she'd probably ask me WHY I wanted to go around barrels and suggest that making 10 laps of the arena would be much more satisfying!

    I like her in part for her mental attitude, but that mental attitude has made turning her into a semi-safe trail horse a real challenge. And she couldn't work a cow to save her soul - it would be straight to hell with her, if cutting cattle was needed to enter horse heaven!

    Instead of rejecting breeding, we ought to delight in it. Provided it doesn't turn Border Collies into just agile dogs...
    dbarabians likes this.
         
        10-22-2013, 08:40 PM
      #58
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trailhorserider    
    I have never bought a horse based on papers. Some of my horses come with papers, some don't. But that never factored into my decision. I buy a horse based on the horse in front of me......training, disposition, etc.
    Which is OK if you check out the horse thoroughly enough to make a reasonably intelligent assessment of its abilities and disposition - or if you are buying a proven horse. Unfortunately, as you can tell from the host of mismatches you constantly see in these forums, most people either don't check them out thoroughly or don't have the expertise to do so - or the previous owners didn't use the horse for anything other than a pasture ornament or occasional pleasure riding. For the person that is buying an unproven horse and doesn't have the expertise to evaluate form to function, knowing the ancestry can at least let them know what the horse is bred to do - if anything. There is never a guaranty - a horse is what it is, papers or no papers, but papers, or at least knowing the ancestry, is better than buying a horse blind, which is exactly what the majority of people do...
         
        10-23-2013, 06:36 AM
      #59
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trailhorserider    
    I have no experience with show Arabs. And I'm sure mine were culls from someone's breeding program. They weren't super typey like you would see in the show ring. But they were very sane and sensible.

    There are nutters in all breeds. I have seen some Quarter Horses I wouldn't trust. And a Paint that was probably the worst horse I have ever bought (she didn't stay around for long). But on Arabians, I am 2 for 2 with owning wonderful horses!

    Also, with Arabians in the show ring, they seem to like to have them fired up and "hot." I remember in the 80's going out to Arabian farms on Sunday afternoons for their public showings and they encouraged the horses to prance and show off......with fire extinguishers, plastic bags on whips, etc. In other words, part of the firey attitude of the show horses comes from training. They weren't training for calmness, they were training for flash and presence. A calm attitude wasn't being rewarded or trained for in those horses.
    I'm not saying there are not nutters in all breeds what I was saying was that the arab reputation is based on fact. Fact is that for a long time the arabs were bred to be dippy headed morons by a lot of breeders and hence the breed suffered with disproportionate amounts of nutters, the nutters are the rule rather than the exception.

    I will say it is getting better but fairly slowly.

    I show M&M's and coloureds now but still keep an eye on the arabs. I still wouldnt ride 70% of the arabs in the ring but would quite happily get on most of the M&M's and coloureds.

    My arab was from old Polish lines, he was ace, very practical and I did everything on him from teaching begginers to XC but he was the exception rather than the rule when it came to arabs.
         
        10-23-2013, 10:50 AM
      #60
    Started
    I understand where OP is coming from....I have a Paint horse that I was looking at having trained. I have little experience with stock horses, but I had him going nicely w-t-c, nice turns, stops, etc. I thought he would make a cute reiner, or at least working cow horse. EVERY trainer asked what his bloodlines were. Then shook their head. I took him to a SHOT clinic, and the clinicians LOVED him!! NEVER asked what the bloodlines were, just accepted him on HIS merits. And several participants asked about breeding to him. A good horse is a good horse, ESPECIALLY a gelding....

    Nancy
         

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