OPENING UP A CAN OF WORMS (halter horses) - Page 20 - The Horse Forum
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post #191 of 200 Old 08-04-2011, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by bsms View Post
Depends on the market you are catering to. For someone interested in showing or competing, yes. For general riding...not really. For horses selling in the $750-1500 range, basic conformation and training counts far more than papers.
It counts for more, yes, for someone who doesn't want a papered horse. But the papered horse still sells for more money. I'm talking about how much the horse is worth on the general market. Look up equine classified ads. Can't argue cold, hard fact.

If you were suddenly in a desperate situation and had to get rid of your horse fast, a papered horse would be much easier to sell than an un-papered horse with the same attributes.

And yes, training and a good, sound mind and body will sell a horse faster than papers, but if you're selling a well-trained horse with papers and a well-trained horse without papers, the papered horse will sell faster and for more money.
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post #192 of 200 Old 08-05-2011, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by bagof4grapes View Post
It counts for more, yes, for someone who doesn't want a papered horse. But the papered horse still sells for more money. I'm talking about how much the horse is worth on the general market. Look up equine classified ads. Can't argue cold, hard fact.

If you were suddenly in a desperate situation and had to get rid of your horse fast, a papered horse would be much easier to sell than an un-papered horse with the same attributes.

And yes, training and a good, sound mind and body will sell a horse faster than papers, but if you're selling a well-trained horse with papers and a well-trained horse without papers, the papered horse will sell faster and for more money.
Papers are a plus. So is the perfect age, gender, color, etc. So yes, papered horses often sell for more. Geldings sometimes sell for more. 8-12 yr olds often sell for more. Horses in fancy colors sell for more. But selling price does not often reflect quality. Sometimes it just reflects the value of the horse in the eyes of the person that is selling it.

Papers are a positive, not a negative. But they don't make the horse. In the end, they are just an ID card for the horse. An identity.

But yes, average it out, and papered horse often sell for more. There are a lot of cheap papered horses out there right now, that except for a set of papers, are not any different from a grade horse.

Hey, I'm not an argumentative soul. I just feel a need to defend all the honest, non-papered using horses in the world. I love and appreciate them just the way they are. And if they all went away today, I would be heart broken!

And I would certainly rather have a well trained Mustang than a fancy halter QH horse that can't work a lick! (No offense to fancy halter QH's that CAN work a lick).

Really, it should be both. Good looking horses should also be able to work. I think sometimes people lose sight of form vs. function. Halter horses should be beautiful athletes. Not the weirdo fashion models of the horse world. They should be what the rest of the breed aspires to. The best of their type. We should go "Ooh and ahhh I want one!" Not "OMG, that horse is freaky!"
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post #193 of 200 Old 08-05-2011, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by trailhorserider View Post
Papers are a plus. So is the perfect age, gender, color, etc. So yes, papered horses often sell for more. Geldings sometimes sell for more. 8-12 yr olds often sell for more. Horses in fancy colors sell for more. But selling price does not often reflect quality. Sometimes it just reflects the value of the horse in the eyes of the person that is selling it.

Papers are a positive, not a negative. But they don't make the horse. In the end, they are just an ID card for the horse. An identity.

But yes, average it out, and papered horse often sell for more. There are a lot of cheap papered horses out there right now, that except for a set of papers, are not any different from a grade horse.

Hey, I'm not an argumentative soul. I just feel a need to defend all the honest, non-papered using horses in the world. I love and appreciate them just the way they are. And if they all went away today, I would be heart broken!

And I would certainly rather have a well trained Mustang than a fancy halter QH horse that can't work a lick! (No offense to fancy halter QH's that CAN work a lick).

Really, it should be both. Good looking horses should also be able to work. I think sometimes people lose sight of form vs. function. Halter horses should be beautiful athletes. Not the weirdo fashion models of the horse world. They should be what the rest of the breed aspires to. The best of their type. We should go "Ooh and ahhh I want one!" Not "OMG, that horse is freaky!"
Yes, I agree with you. However, the point I'm trying to make is that un-papered horses usually get the short end of the stick. They're the ones that end up in feedlots and on slaughter trucks, more often than papered horses. My argument is simply that it should also be the goal of a breeder to breed horses who can be registered, and make sure that they actually make an effort to register them if they can. Even when breeding crosses, stick to breeds that mix well together and can be registered in legitimate registries, like Appendix QH's and half-Arabs.

To me, personally, a horse without papers is just as desirable for my own purposes as a horse with papers. But the hard truth is that un-papered horses are often stuck with a hard life and many end up on a French dinner plate. To ensure that the horses you breed will have as good a chance at life as possible, it's best to make darn sure they get registered. It's a kindness to the horse more than anything else.
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post #194 of 200 Old 08-05-2011, 01:33 AM
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I am not opposed to registered horses. I sold one ($600!) and own another (sweepstakes nominated, as well). And the folks I know who have owned horses all their lives look at my papered Arabian mare and my unregistered Appy/Arab cross gelding, and prefer the gelding.

I prefer the mare, but at their price point ($1000-1500), papers do not count for a lot. No more than $100 or so, which would be within the noise level of bargaining skill.

BTW - I wouldn't breed my mare. It would be far cheaper and more reliable to buy a yearling and let someone else take the genetic chances.
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post #195 of 200 Old 08-05-2011, 09:38 AM
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When I bought the horse that I am riding now, I was actually at the farm to look at their stallion. I was planning on breeding my mare. The price difference in the stud fee and a nice weanling already standing there on the ground was just not enough to make me want to breed. The horse that I bought was the correct conformation, color, size, etc. that I wanted. The brood mare was a much better horse than my own mare. Also, my mare didn't have to take time off from riding for being in foal. If I want another horse, I will probably buy rather than breed. The stud fee for a horse that I would want and that would be a good match for my mare would be too high. I also have to much time and money in training my mare to want to take the risks involved with pregnancy. On the other hand, I think that most horsemen eventually want the enjoyment of raising a foal. I am glad that I have raised several. (All the babies I have ever raised will die on my farm of old age. I will never sell them.)

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post #196 of 200 Old 08-08-2011, 12:02 AM
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Can I just add, I have a grade filly with fabulous conformation, colour, flashy looks AND temperament, and she is very well trained/handled for a foal her age. I paid $1000 for her. I'm constantly getting comments from experienced horsepeople along the lines of 'gorgeous baby, she'll be a superstar under saddle'. BECAUSE the market is down, and she is not registered and as far as I know not eligible to BE registered, she was cheap. Her low price combined with her quality and the fact that she's buckskin are what made me get a filly. I wanted a colt or a gelding.

And I have a registered Anglo Arab gelding with good confo apart from his longish cannons, training (ex-high-level eventer), temperament, flashy looks (bright bay with white). I paid $2000 for him. He is a great horse, sold to me cheap because his previous owner's first priority was the home he got.

I have never paid more than $2500 for a horse and I have, and have had, some FANTASTIC horses.
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post #197 of 200 Old 08-27-2011, 01:11 PM
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I agree 100%. The horses they have in halter today are so awkward to ride. A gal at the barn I board at brought in her halter horse and we got to talking and she ask if I would start him under saddle. He was the laziest most unwilling horse i've ever had to work with and I think its mostly because nobody in his 14 years ever asked him to do anything but stand square. He was a good boy on the ground but the minute you were up on his back all of his good humor was out the window.
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post #198 of 200 Old 08-27-2011, 09:00 PM
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That's training more than discipline though - good groundwork, as I'm sure you know, makes starting them to saddle a lot easier. If they already understand moving away from pressure, it becomes easier to teach them the undersaddle aids. My foal, at 8 months, is already learning about sideways and is fluent in forward and back. She is learning about having things on her back (rugs, birds etc) and I have been using my 10 foot rope to teach her about the feeling of having something tied around her middle. I lean across her back (no weight) to get her used to the idea of me on top of her. She is learning about traffic and come 3 years' time when I start her she will be totally used to it. All these things will make starting her much easier when the time comes.

However, many people believe that sufficient groundwork is walk, trot and stand. This is what my foal had at 5 months of age. If a 5 month old foal is fluent enough in these things to show successfully (she did, champion unregistered exhibit), then an adult horse should be fluent in many many more and yet most in-hand people don't bother... Why? Because they can't be bothered training it? Don't know how? Don't think it's important? I don't know. Please, no one be offended, I'm trying to understand here... Could someone enlighten me?
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post #199 of 200 Old 08-28-2011, 09:30 AM
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I agree with everyone else I have always loved quarterhorses for there all around goodness but the halter horses of today are awful. Whats the point of haveing a horse that can't do anything but look pretty. Its a shame in my opinion.

Amanda

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post #200 of 200 Old 08-29-2011, 06:28 AM
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^ and some of them don't even do that!! I am a huge QH fan, Mum has one and he is GORGEOUS, but those over-muscled things are just hideous.

Oh and Mum's horse has the typical light on bone and small feet that a lot of halter-bred QH's have, but his head sure ain't pretty. He has just the right amount of muscle.
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