Overo or tobiano? - Page 3 - The Horse Forum
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post #21 of 30 Old 01-09-2010, 12:16 AM
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It doesn't work that way, Cloud. The filly is a frame overo, as well as carrying possible sabino(the roaning) and definitely splash, which causes the blue eye. Here are the descriptions from the Equine Color website:

Sabino

There is only one form of Sabino that can be tested for, SB1, but many horses that exhibit phenotypical sabino markings test negative for SB1. It is not known at this time how many different genes may be expressing as what we call sabino. Sabino tends to affect the back legs of the horse first. It tends to leave chin white, and roaning along the edges of white markings, and sometimes scattered in the coat. Like any pattern, expression varies. At times markings as small as a star are blamed on sabino, although in truth it is difficult or impossible to tell what pattern a very minimal horse carries without testing. According to the current visual evidence, sabino does not cause blue eyes. Sabino, at least SB1, is an incomplete dominant, meaning that homozygous horses express much more white then heterozygous horses - hence the term "max white sabino" The only breed currently thought to lack sabino is the Icelandic Horse.


Splash

Splash, or splash white, is theorized to be an incomplete dominant gene. Splash tends to leave white markings with even, well defined edges, almost as if the horse had been dipped in white paint, starting at the the head and legs. Blue eyes are common with splash, as well as bottom heavy or apron blazes. Splash is associated with deafness, but not all splash horses are deaf. It is thought that deafness is caused when splash inhibits pigment production in the inner ear. A well know AQHA stallion that exhibits splash is Colonels Smokin Gun


Frame

Frame is otherwise known as lethal white overo (LWO) syndrome. Frame tends to put color on the barrel and face of the horse, move horizontally, and leave the legs solid (although other patterns can add leg white). It also tends to leave white that is "splotchy," with jagged edges. It is well known to cause blue eyes, but not to cause roaning in the coat. The name "Frame" comes from the pattern's propensity to leave a "frame" of color along the outer edges of the barrel.
Frame (LWO) is lethal in its homozygous form, with the foals being born solid white and only surviving a few days. They are born without a functional digestive track, and unless euthanized, die in gastric distress. Because it is often hard to visually tell if a horse has frame (there have been cases of solid colored horses testing positive), it is important to test breeding stock in all breeds that carry frame in order to avoid producing a lethal white foal.
Frame is an incomplete dominant characteristic and breeding frame to frame does not increase your chances of obtaining a frame foal; statistically, 25% of foals from frame-to-frame breedings will die, leaving 50% frame and 25% solid surviving foals. Breeding a negative frame to a frame will give 50% solid and 50% frame foals. By only breeding non-frame to frame you effectively reduce your chance of a dead foal by 25%. The confusion among some breeders is most likely the result of horses carrying multiple white patterns, such as sabino and splash, in addition to frame.


She does not look to carry the tobiano gene at all.
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post #22 of 30 Old 01-09-2010, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kassierae View Post
It doesn't work that way, Cloud.
Why not? She has a few tobiano characteristics and a few overo characteristics. That makes tovero...



Quote:
Originally Posted by kassierae View Post
She does not look to carry the tobiano gene at all.
Sure, not at first glance... but if you look a little closer, she has dark flanks, four white legs, and a two-toned tail. Those are tobiano characteristics. If she were just overo, explain all of that.
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post #23 of 30 Old 01-09-2010, 11:03 AM
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I also do not see tobiano. The definitions you are going off of are for tobiano and frame. She is frame and other "overo" patterns, all of which (except frame) cause leg white. Any pattern can have dark flanks, just depends on where the white is put on the horse. The reason that's considered a tobiano trait is that in tobiano only (which it's rare to find a horse that is ONLY tobiano), the flanks will be dark. Two toned tails can also be due to other patterns.


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post #24 of 30 Old 01-09-2010, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by CheyAut View Post
I also do not see tobiano. The definitions you are going off of are for tobiano and frame. She is frame and other "overo" patterns, all of which (except frame) cause leg white. Any pattern can have dark flanks, just depends on where the white is put on the horse. The reason that's considered a tobiano trait is that in tobiano only (which it's rare to find a horse that is ONLY tobiano), the flanks will be dark. Two toned tails can also be due to other patterns.
What about the legs? Overos never have four white legs...
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post #25 of 30 Old 01-09-2010, 04:55 PM
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Yes overo can have white legs, Splash and Sabino for example. There are different types of overo. Lots of solid horses have white legs, and they are not tobiano.

It doesn't look to me like her tail is two toned, just solid red, but splash horses often have two toned tails, usually colored at the top and white at the bottom (tobianos tend to go the other way, w/ the color at the bottom).

And the blue eye(s) can be from Frame. There 'could' be more patterns there then just the one, but I'd just say she's frame.
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post #26 of 30 Old 01-09-2010, 05:01 PM
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Okay, if you guys say so. I'm not pretending to know anything about pinto genetics (and I don't) - I was just going by what APHA said.
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post #27 of 30 Old 01-09-2010, 05:49 PM
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It just doesn't. Read the descriptions or go to the Equine Color website - www.equine-color.info and you will understand how it works. I've been studying horse color genetics on my own for years now.
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post #28 of 30 Old 01-10-2010, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by CloudsMystique View Post
What about the legs? Overos never have four white legs...
It's in the third sentence of mine you quoted ;)

Breed registries are HORRIBLE with colors, never go by them lol!
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post #29 of 30 Old 01-10-2010, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by CloudsMystique View Post
Okay, if you guys say so. I'm not pretending to know anything about pinto genetics (and I don't) - I was just going by what APHA said.
The APHA website tries to describe general/common characteristics of the patterns in a few short paragraphs and it is easy to understand that folks are sometimes mislead. Note that the words 'generally' and 'usually' appear often. For example, under Tovero, the APHA website says 'One or both eyes blue', but our Tovero has 2 brown eyes.
I believe others have posted other web sites that provide more detailed information on the description and genetics of the patterns.

On the sixth day, God created the Quarter Horse.
On the seventh day, he Painted the good ones.
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post #30 of 30 Old 01-10-2010, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by PaintHorseMares View Post
The APHA website tries to describe general/common characteristics of the patterns in a few short paragraphs and it is easy to understand that folks are sometimes mislead. Note that the words 'generally' and 'usually' appear often. For example, under Tovero, the APHA website says 'One or both eyes blue', but our Tovero has 2 brown eyes.
I believe others have posted other web sites that provide more detailed information on the description and genetics of the patterns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CheyAut View Post
It's in the third sentence of mine you quoted ;)

Breed registries are HORRIBLE with colors, never go by them lol!

Haha, okay.
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