Paints vs. Pintos... - Page 5 - The Horse Forum
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post #41 of 101 Old 03-06-2010, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Seahorseys View Post


I can't understand this for the life of me, nor have I ever attempted to read one before. Here is her mom's pedigree. Now I have to dig up her dad's. Can anyone translate this for me? Or do any of the names look familiar? I ave spent far too much time learning about her lineage today, more than I have on my own family tree. I think I'm going to go play with her now, lol.
She has Ansata in there and it's my understanding, when it is close up anyway, they're very sought after

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post #42 of 101 Old 03-06-2010, 10:06 AM
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I went to one of my sources, who I always go to if I want to know anything about QH's or need to talk to someone regarding Paints and she'll give me a contact. She's been extensively involved in the QH industry for a number years, is friends or acquaintances with most anyone who's anybody in the QH industry, has Paint connections, been involved in registries etc.. I asked her if the Paint and QH were the same breed.

I've asked her to join the site, but she is in the middle of a move halfway around the planet, so may not be able to accomodate that request...at least not for a month or two.

This is her e-mail back to me, verbatim:

No I would not consider them the same breed - it's a weird area - the paint horse association allows crop out quarter horses to be registered - however - I don't conisder them "paint horses" per se - they are QH with excess white - above the knee - extending over the eye - poll or lower lip and sometimes belly patches - alot of QH fell into this - Gunner being a high profile example - however he is in fact a crop out qh with QH bloodlines - paint horse blood is paint horse blood - same as a TB in a QH pedigree is still a TB - no matter what the papers say that horse is still that % TB.....a solid paint with paint blood is still a paint with no color not a QH -clear as mud eh?


The Pinto association is a color registry and I believe allows a far greater variety of blood - arab etc.,the APHA was founded on color and stock type conformation - both registries descended from spotted indian ponies

Paint coloring as we now know is genetic and the APHA is working to ensure that paint is bred to paint - I think much like the App assoc they are weeding out the Paint to QH breeding trend as there are enough in the gene pool to ensure both color and proven performance genetics - it is still however a smaller association and not nearly as big or as $$ driven as the QH industry - Solid paints are still ineligable to show anywhere but $$ driven associations(NCHA, NRHA etc) and still are worth virtually 0 in the marketplace.


Here is the link to the APHA - they have some really good info/history and genetic information but my personal opinion is no - they are not the same breed based on foundation/color/genetics and history
APHA.Com - The Breed
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post #43 of 101 Old 03-06-2010, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Mercedes View Post

No I would not consider them the same breed - it's a weird area - the paint horse association allows crop out quarter horses to be registered - however - I don't conisder them "paint horses" per se - they are QH with excess white - above the knee - extending over the eye - poll or lower lip and sometimes belly patches - alot of QH fell into this - Gunner being a high profile example - however he is in fact a crop out qh with QH bloodlines - paint horse blood is paint horse blood - same as a TB in a QH pedigree is still a TB - no matter what the papers say that horse is still that % TB.....a solid paint with paint blood is still a paint with no color not a QH -clear as mud eh?


APHA.Com - The Breed
This ihas not been true for several years now. Any horse that has two QH parents can be registered as a QH regardless of the amount of white. If she does not know this then that brings her credentials into question. They are different breeds but they share far too many of the same bloodlines and characteristics to be considered completely unrelated. There is not the same differences between QH's and Paints as there is between QH's and Arabs or TB's. QH's have an entirely different look and temperment than the average arab even if they are participating in the same event. TB's look much different than the vast majority of QHs. Even racing TB's look much different than racing QHs to a trained eye. As has been proven in the posts above a Paint halter champ looks just like a QH halter champ with the exception of color and markings.

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Last edited by kevinshorses; 03-06-2010 at 12:38 PM.
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post #44 of 101 Old 03-06-2010, 02:58 PM
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>>>> Paint coloring as we now know is genetic

OKKKKK.... isn't ALL coloring and patterning genetic? I am not sure what is meant by that.

>>>> and the APHA is working to ensure that paint is bred to paint - I think much like the App assoc they are weeding out the Paint to QH breeding trend as there are enough in the gene pool to ensure both color and proven performance genetics -

WRONG. The ApHC is NOT weeding out TB or QH (or Arab which is the 3rd allowed cross with ApHC Appaloosas.) Where is your source getting this info? There has been crossing out in the ApHC since the beginning in 1938, with it being limited to QH/TB and Arab back in 1985....A show rule was changed in 2002 that made it more 'risky' to cross out, but it was rescinded in 2007 (and it never took the crossing option away, just made it more or a risk to cross as far as what was show-able)-- so actually ApHC is MORE QH/TB/Arab-crossing friendly now than it was between 2002-2007.

>>>>> it is still however a smaller association and not nearly as big or as $$ driven as the QH industry - Solid paints are still ineligable to show anywhere but $$ driven associations(NCHA, NRHA etc) and still are worth virtually 0 in the marketplace.

SOME solid Paints are worth next to nothing, and most are certainly worth less than their colored counterparts..... however your source is WRONG about where they can or cannot be shown. Paint shows can (and many do) have classes for solids. Solids can be raced in Paint races. The Paint World Show has classes for solids and in fact has been adding more. here is the 2009 World Champion Solid paint-bred 2 and over Stallion--


Here is the 2007 and 2009 APHA World Champion Solid Paint in SPB Western Pleasure.


IMO your source is not as well-informed about things as you think they are.

Laura Lyon
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Last edited by Eastowest; 03-06-2010 at 03:00 PM.
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post #45 of 101 Old 03-06-2010, 03:25 PM
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Yeah, the SPB information is wrong to the highest level. The rule books are available online for FREE - how about someone go read one? -rolls eyes-

My filly is SPB and is an APHA Futurity Champion. There's lots of SPB's out there showing at APHA shows all across the nation.

Mercedes, I mean this with no offense at all, but your friend needs to get a darn rule book (or many) and do some serious reading.

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post #46 of 101 Old 03-07-2010, 07:18 AM
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I have to agree with ETW, I had always been told that QHs and Paints started out as the same breed, and branched off in the very early history of the QH and Paint breed. There is so much crossing to QHs and TBs that I think you would be hard pressed to find a Paint that did not have at least one QH or TB in their immediate pedigree.

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post #47 of 101 Old 03-08-2010, 07:05 PM
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Actually, my source is in the middle of the QH AND Paint world, which is not btw, in Northern Utah, Michigan or Indiana. They are very involved in many aspects and as I've stated already, are friends or acquaintances of most anyone who's anybody in that sector of the equine world. That includes the last decade+ of world champion riders and trainers...many of whom are clients of my source. That isn't an exaggeration, it's a fact and I've been in many of the barns of those champion riders and trainers.

Response...


Of course I am aware that QH now allows excess white - I am also aware of the embryo transfer rules, HYPP, Herda debates rules, ad nauseum - I keep up with AQHA but since the question was APHA that man should have known that - I didn't think I needed to clarify in my answer that excess white QUARTER HORSES are eligible for registration in the AQHA!

He's trying to argue the most ridiculous point - they are in fact a separate breed - that simple - it's not different than arguing are QH's & TB's the same breed because the QH originated from a lot of TB stock in the foundation stages.

And as for showing - showing at the APHA world is big *poo* - ask him how many horses where actually in the class - although on second thought there were probably a lot in the non -colored class - since yes they have a handful of classes at PAINT shows and most breeders end up with a gut load of non-colored stuff - why can't they show AQHA if they are just a QH?

As for value - sit through the sale at APHA world sale once. If he thinks your source isn't as well informed as he thinks, fine - but if I realized we needed to argue semantics and make sure our posts included every single nuance of the registration and showing processes I'd have given a more clear answer.





Everything else aside, the question is valid...if Paints were in fact 'Quarter Horses', then the non-colored Paints would be allowed to show AQHA. However, they are not, because the AQHA does not recognized them as Quarter Horses.

Quote:
They are different breeds but they share far too many of the same bloodlines and characteristics to be completely unrelated.
Well, thank you for finally stating that they are indeed a different breed. I do believe that's what I said orginally that you argued against.

That they resemble each other within the same discipline at the upper level was never relevant to what I said, nor was it something I was arguing. That simply goes without saying.

The fact remains, I can usually tell them apart because I see differences in them structural (in general), and have often found their temperaments to be different (in general).
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post #48 of 101 Old 03-08-2010, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Mercedes View Post
Everything else aside, the question is valid...if Paints were in fact 'Quarter Horses', then the non-colored Paints would be allowed to show AQHA. However, they are not, because the AQHA does not recognized them as Quarter Horses.
This can obviously be an never ending discussion, but I would just like to say that the logic above is faulty with respect to whether Paints and QHs are the 'same' horse. The breeds, both Paint and QH, are defined solely by words in their registry's rule books, which have their own, self serving agendas, and now that both organizations basically 'tolerate' solids/crop outs, those definitions are soley based on parentage.

...but, the AQHA still prefers their horses to be solid and the APHA still prefers them to be colored, regardless of the build, disposition, parentage, or skills of the horse.

To me, the following from the AQHA rulebook (205d) sounds so silly that it always makes me laugh, and reminds me of how us left handed folks were treated when I was a child. The APHA doesn't go quite as far in their rule book wording, but the poor solids are still segregated to a separate registry.

205. GENETIC DEFECTS AND UNDESIRABLE TRAITS
(d) White Markings: A
horse having white markings with underlying light skin beyond any one of the following described
lines shall be eligible for registration by AQHA
only if it is parentage verified through DNA typing the offspring, its
sire and its dam. Breeders should be aware that the American Quarter Horse, while long recognized, identified
and promoted as a solid-colored horse, can and does occasionally produce offspring with overo paint
characteristics. Such markings are uncharacteristic of the breed and are considered to be undesirable traits.
The following notification shall be placed on registration certificates of horses exceeding these marking
limitations:

"This horse has white markings designated under AQHA rules as an undesirable trait and
uncharacteristic of the breed."

No offense to anyone. We own Paints instead of QHs because we prefer the coloring, but are stock horse lovers regardless. They are, after all, the same .

On the sixth day, God created the Quarter Horse.
On the seventh day, he Painted the good ones.
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post #49 of 101 Old 03-08-2010, 11:40 PM
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>>>> Actually, my source is in the middle of the QH AND Paint world, which is not btw, in Northern Utah, Michigan or Indiana.

???
Was anyone arguing geographic relevance?

If we were, or if we are going to...... FWIW just because someone lives in MI or IN or UT doesn't mean they've never been to CO, TX or OK... or that they don't communicate with people there..... and other places.

Where is your farm, Mercedes? Any links to pedigrees and photos of your Paints you can share?

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post #50 of 101 Old 03-09-2010, 12:08 AM
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>>>>> Well, thank you for finally stating that they are indeed a different breed. I do believe that's what I said orginally that you argued against.

Actually you are missing the point that no one here is denying that they are "seperate" breed registries-- one being APHA and one being AQHA. They are seperate. They don't allow total crossover. But its because of individual rules on paper-- NOT because the horses they register aren't related or similar or judged by the same standards.... because the horses APHA and AQHA ARE for the most part very similar, very related, and they ARE judged by almost identical standards and in many cases by the very same double-carded judges.

Whart most of us ARE arguing against are your statements such as;

"With the specialization of QH's for each of the western disciplines, the QH looks very different than the Paint in most cases...over and above the color factor. There also tend to be very distinct differences in temperament."

Or the fact that you said.....
>>>> There certainly are alot of QH's that don't have Paints in them for breeders who want to compete in AQHA only...too risky if they get color, even from a breeding stock Paint.

But then you/your source contradicted that by saying--

>>>>> Of course I am aware that QH now allows excess white

And you quoted your source as saying,

>>>>> Solid paints are still ineligable to show anywhere but $$ driven associations(NCHA, NRHA etc) and still are worth virtually 0 in the marketplace.

But then you quoted them contradicting themselves by saying--

>>>>ask him how many horses where actually in the class - although on second thought there were probably a lot in the non -colored class - since yes they have a handful of classes at PAINT shows

And finally, as an Appaloosa person who is very much involved my breed, I KNOW the claim below made by your source is VERY wrong---

>>>>Paint coloring as we now know is genetic and the APHA is working to ensure that paint is bred to paint - I think much like the App assoc they are weeding out the Paint to QH breeding trend as there are enough in the gene pool to ensure both color and proven performance genetics -

But when I pointed that out, and asked where the info came from, your source apparently didn't have an answer?





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