Paints vs. Pintos... - Page 7
   

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Paints vs. Pintos...

This is a discussion on Paints vs. Pintos... within the Horse Breeds forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category

     
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        03-09-2010, 09:00 AM
      #61
    Banned
    I just do not see how you can ASSume that just because of where some one lives how much they know about a certain thing.

    I would then logically deduct that someone who proudly posts photos of them self riding a very inverted horse knows very little about riding.
         
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        03-09-2010, 09:20 AM
      #62
    mls
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mercedes    



    What does the horse in the avatar look like? A QH?
    Honestly - looks like a draft cross.
         
        03-09-2010, 11:12 AM
      #63
    Weanling
    Ahh.... your mare's sire has PtHA registration-- well that clears up some of the mystery. Her sire Britches In A Twist was sired by Sierra Lucky Dee Bar, who is registered both Pinto and Paint. Here is a link to his pedigree--
    Sierra Lucky Dee Bar Paint

    This photo says its of Sierraluckydeebar (Pinto did say it was spelled all run together like that)

    http://www.zootoo.com/photo/photoslu...NzB8bnxufG58MA==

    The dam to Britches In A Twist is Withafancytwist, who is registered PtHA only (according to PtHA records) and they were not too forthcoming about giving out additional pedigree info over the phone. Once you get the papers, they may tell you more as far as pedigree-- also Pinto has an online database for PtHA members.
         
        03-09-2010, 12:32 PM
      #64
    Weanling
    Wow, thank you so so much! The mystery is almost unraveled! Now I just need to find out more about her sire's dam! This has been really neat, she's got some well-known horses in her bloodline! I do see quite a few Quarterhorses and Paints mixed together in her grandfather's pedigree, ha, so maybe she truly is half Quaint.

    Question though. If you look back, you see a sire; Sonny Dee Bar; is registered as a QUARTERHORSE, as is the dam he mated with, Nicky Bar McQue. So how did two QH's produce Super Son Dee, a PAINT? It happens again with Thistle Sox Jr. And Barber Rose. How is this possible?
         
        03-09-2010, 12:40 PM
      #65
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Alwaysbehind    
    I just do not see how you can ASSume that just because of where some one lives how much they know about a certain thing.

    I would then logically deduct that someone who proudly posts photos of them self riding a very inverted horse knows very little about riding.
    Come on now, let's stay civil. I've been unbiased, as the debate has been interesting and engaging enough, both sides bring up great topics to consider. It doesn't have anything to do with how someone rides.
         
        03-09-2010, 01:17 PM
      #66
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mercedes    
    People will claim upside, backwards, and forwards that Paints and QH's are the same. They no longer are the same. It would be like saying the Andalusian and Lusitano are the same. They also are not.

    With the specialization of QH's for each of the western disciplines, the QH looks very different than the Paint in most cases...over and above the color factor. There also tend to be very distinct differences in temperament.

    You will of course find some individuals that resemble each other between the breeds depending on genetics, but shared blood several generations back is of no consequence and irrelevant. Only the first couple of generations matter.

    I can see both the Arab and Paint traits in your mare and overall it's a good blend. She is not structured like a QH reiner, so it's no surprise she doesn't move like one.
    Just in case anybody forgot the post that started the debate and subsequent thread drift. The sentance in bold is the one I have the disagreement with. All horses will have different personalities but on average paints and QHs will have very very similar temperment because they originated in the same areas and are bred for the same thing. They have seperate registries but thier breed standards and the purpose they are bred for are exactly the same with the exception of color. They both need the temperment to perform the same way. If you looked at 5 paints and 5 QHs you might decide that there were different temperments between the two breeds but if you looked at 100 examples of each breed there would not be a difference in temperment. However if you looked at 100 QHs or paints compared to 100 Arabs you would notice profound differences.

    I believe that everyone knows there are two two seperate registries. Nobody is argueing that they are in fact two different breeds but the breeds are so closely related that they are distinquished only by color and in some cases not even that.
         
        03-09-2010, 01:54 PM
      #67
    Weanling
    >>>> Question though. If you look back, you see a sire; Sonny Dee Bar; is registered as a QUARTERHORSE, as is the dam he mated with, Nicky Bar McQue. So how did two QH's produce Super Son Dee, a PAINT? It happens again with Thistle Sox Jr. And Barber Rose. How is this possible?

    The Quarter Horse gene pool has sabino(s), splash, and frame overo in it. These genes, when their white-producing tendencies are more highly expressed, create white leg, face and body markings that have been loosely classified as "overo" markings. (Now that we know more about them, we know they are severalseperate genes, but early on, they were all lumped together as they created similar phenotypes, especially at their lower levels of expression.)

    When AQHA was founded in the early 1940's, and for many decades thereafter, horses that had white past certain limits could not be AQHA-registered. The two predecessor registries that merged to form APHA in the 1960's, the American Paint Stock Horse assoc. And the American Paint QH assoc., were formed as a place to register paint-marked stock type horses including these "cropout" paint-marked horses from QH parentage. (Some would argue that the APQHA formed specifically for this purpose-- hence the name-- and the APSHA had this as a primary purpose as well.)

    The Paint horses in your mare's pedigree that came from 2 AQHA parents were part of this era-- they qualified by color and by bloodlines, since until around 2004, APHA accepted any combination of registered Paint, AQHA, or Thoroughbred breeding for parentage of color-qualified horses. There were also some horses maintained both AQHA and APHA registration, since AQHA allowed a little morer white than APHA's minimum, so some registered QHs thereby qualified for both APHA and AQHA.

    IIRC, it was in 2004 that AQHA rescinded its registration ban on those "too much" white horses, and began to register any offspring of two registered AQHA parents. (They left a show restriction on these excessive white horses-- their papers are noted and they can't be shown in a halter class.)

    Soon after, APHA enacted a rule requiring all applicant horses for APHA registration had one registered Paint parent. This would stop registration of "new" cropouts-- but it does not stop AQHA x AQHA registered horses from being registered paint, as long as one of the AQHA parents also has APHA papers, which a fair number did, and still do.
         
        03-09-2010, 04:51 PM
      #68
    Weanling
    One point we have touched on but not specifically discussed in this debate is SELECTION.

    Mercedes said:

    ""You will of course find some individuals that resemble each other between the breeds depending on genetics, but shared blood several generations back is of no consequence and irrelevant. Only the first couple of generations matter.""

    When we are talking about the type and traits a breed or bloodline has, the "blood"' from earlier generations is NOT irrelevant, because the genetics you talk about come from those ancestors-- especially if at some point your gene pool becomes closed.

    How those genes pass on are controlled in ssignificant measure by breeder selection. You and I could start with the same founding stock, but if you continually select for and breed forward the tallest thinnest horses in each successive generation, and I continually select for and breed forward the shortest stockiest horses, after several generations, our herds will look different, even though they share common ancestry.

    With Paints and Quarter horses, overall, BREEDER SELECTION has been for similar if not identical type and traits. A horse that comes from even 10 generations of Paint x Paint breeding will not necessarily look or act any different in than its QH cousins, if the breeders along the way selected for the same consistent type and traits in each generation. They are registered in 2 different places (for the most part, LOL), but their ancestry and their phenotype and temperament will greatly resemble one anothers'.

    Now, I DO believe that there could be Paint breeders that limit their breeding programs to specific Paint x Paint lines, and they might even have a list of unique traits they are trying to preserve and breed forward that are not as commonly found in the "general run" of Paint horses. But these would be the minority, and would be considered a breeder group of horses-- NOT the definition for the entire breed.
         
        03-09-2010, 05:41 PM
      #69
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mercedes    
    It's a shame you have such problems comprehending various writing styles and diction. Of course, you can always just go ask Spyder, she knows me well enough to know I couldn't have been bothered. If I have something to say, I'll say it under my own handle.

    Thanks so much, darling, for adding to the topic of the thread. *thumbs up*
    No problem sweetypoo.
         
        03-09-2010, 07:42 PM
      #70
    Banned
    As an answer to a question, the reason that nowadays they can't register a solid paint with the AQHA is becuase of BLOODLINES. Paints have sperate paint lines from QH's, so if it was a 3 generation solid paint, it couldnt be with the QH because it doesn't have uch QH blood in it.
    I do find Qh's and paints to be very similar, but their lines are different(for paints) until you get back to the QH's again.
    Take my horse, Chance, for example. He is a solid paint, but has lots of QH names. And TB's. But because he isn't decended from just QH's, he can't really be a QH. Tiny Chex Bar Paint

    I hope I'm making sense! APHA's and Qh's are like the same, but not. Back awhile ago, they were like the same. Even now, they are pretty much the same. But the Paints were/are derived from Qh's, but QH's can go back being pure QH's for generations(until TB's). So now with so many paint bloodlines, and their color, they are seperated from QH.
    IMO, they should just make it the Colored Quarter Horse Ass. And consider paints Colored QH's because they are very similar. And they can make exceptions to Arab/Tb crosses in there.

    Its so hard to explain, sorry if I messed you guys up! :)
         

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