Saddleseat- How has this not been outlawed? - Page 10

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Saddleseat- How has this not been outlawed?

This is a discussion on Saddleseat- How has this not been outlawed? within the Horse Breeds forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category
  • Saddleseat is cruel/Show ring shame
  • Champion saddleseat trainer

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    01-16-2012, 07:28 PM
I don't know if it matters, but this thread is 3 and a half years old. Kind of crusty by now.
LadyDreamer, Wallaby and smrobs like this.
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    01-17-2012, 01:30 AM
Lets face it, and not take it out of context or compare to something else.....showing Saddlebred to the highest level is a cruel practise. There I said it.
Avna likes this.
    01-17-2012, 01:45 AM
I agree with tinyliny. Lets not dig up threads from three years ago.

Lets face it waresbare. Showing top level saddebreds is not cruel.

I have the experience in training and showing these magnificent horses to back up my side of this argument. Do you?
    01-17-2012, 01:46 AM
I only have experience with one trainer, and the horses were mostly Arabians and National Show Horses. It was saddleseat, though, along with country English pleasure (I'm not too keen on the difference, to be honest, so if someone wants to enlighten me, feel free). This particular trainer is a BIG name in this particular show world, with top dollar horses and numerous national championships and accolades, and a barn full to the brim with training horses. I know that one bad egg should not necessarily spoil the whole sport, but the practices there are reprehensible, and have soured me to saddleseat and related disciplines. My farrier just told me this past week that he knows of not one but two horses that this trainer has blinded in the roundpen, hitting them in the face/eye with the whip. The headsetting devices they use are barbaric, the horses never get turnout, and the worst part to me is the shoeing. My farrier quite shoeing for them because he refuses to lame horses. I've seen them throw a shoe and half of their hoof wall with it. I've seen radiographs of joints so twisted and gnarled it's a wonder the horse can stand, but they shoe them so they look straight. Their feet are an absolute mess, with insanely long toes and a heel that ends halfway beneath the foot is soo underrun. They're always lame, and are always getting treated by the vet just enough to keep them going for the next show. The trainer and barn help keep the horses so jacked up for the show ring, too, that they haved to be drugged with a xylazine cocktail just to do anything with them. But they win and bring in the mega bucks. And the barn was filthy, the stalls were small, and in the summer it is unbelieveably hot, with no ventilation or fan system. The horses are always soaked with swat standing in their stalls.

And come to think of it, I just recalled that I did have a little experience with a national champion Saddlebred saddleseat trainer. He was even worse, if possible. I saw him fly off the handle and deliver a sound beating to a horse whose offense was....stopping to pee in the barn aisle.

So that's my experience.
    01-17-2012, 01:55 AM
What I seen described in your posts LadyDreamer seems cruel to me. But there are way worse things going on out there and the horses are being cared for and fed so maybe I should rephrase cruel. I can't think of a word, doesn't matter anyways. Things we do to animals to exhibit them I suppose are cruel, some moreso than others. What I think is more cruel is not using a horse, sticking it out in a pasture, then eventually it being sent off to slaughter as it has no use. I'd rather see it's tail nicked & ginger up it's butt in a showring.
Fimargue likes this.
    01-17-2012, 02:05 AM
Oh I can throw out a long list of PEOPLE who are hideous creatures that deserve the worst torture for what they have done to horses. The names on my list do span all breeds, but are mostly from my breed, simply because they are what I know more.The concentration of them is higher to me so naturally I'd know more. From what I have seen, those people are cruel in nature. They are cruel and mean in usually all aspects of their lives. It would not matter their occupation. It is a shame they chose my breed. They could have chosen anything.

My list of high quality GOOD people and trainers at the highest level is much longer than the list of bad. Again, because of the number of people I know and the number of barns I have been in and the number of horses I have seen and worked, I have been able to see the good and know that it is not just in a handful of barns.

I am not one to condemn something because of a few bad experiences.
Golden Horse likes this.
    01-17-2012, 09:21 AM
The associations should not reward these people.

I'm sure their are ways to achive quality saddleseat results without abuse. That does not change a few points, however. First, any kind of surgical intervention on a horse for aesthetics or show is wrong, particularly one that interferes with its natural stance and movement. Second, all horses deserve time to be....horses. Any discipline that does not allow them adequate socialization and turnout time is frankly inhumane. And third, if you are shoeing a horse for a certain kind of movement, and leaving a long toe, underrun heel, or even moderately weighted shoe--you are not working in the horse's best interest. No getting around that.
Fimargue likes this.
    01-17-2012, 10:58 AM
Think what you will about the cosmetic alteration of the tail. I will not say you are wrong for being against it. Cruel? Not when done properly. Again, same with ear cropping and tail docking of dogs. It is completely cosmetic and if done and not taken care of, it can be devastatingly cruel. I am taking care of five youngsters in sets being prepared for the surgery. It is tedious and obnoxious and I wish unaltered tails were popular enough to matter in the ring. It is legal, but image counts for quite a bit.

As for weights and shoeing.... please refer to previous posts. If I can add a bit of weight to one side to change the direction the foot travels to keep my horse from hitting his opposite knee I'd be happy too. It is generally accepted that less is more when it comes to shoeing, believe it or not.

Shoeing is an art. The good farriers are coveted, the bad ones(Hey I know some of each too!) eventually shape up or move from barn to barn as the gain and lose business.

Sometimes the quality of the foot is not the fault of the farrier. Nutrition plays a vital role in the stability and soundness of the hoof wall. If you are losing the foot with the shoe, you need to carefully examine every aspect of the horses life. From food to farrier.

As for the Association taking care of the abusers... it is not the responsibility to babysit and make sure every horse in its registry is turned out and cuddled and spoken softly to. They have much more important things to worry about. When a problem is brought publicly to their attention, heavy fines, regulation of that individual, and potential banning from rated shows are possibilities. All of which has happened within the last few years.

Without an army of inspectors asking to regulate every action within a private barn is ridiculous, especially if doing so was through the parent brreed Association. What a great way to gt memberships pulled which are the life of the organization. And then where would they be, this army of inspectors with no barns to go to.

If they aren't caught on the show grounds, then what? Allow the judges to make a moral call on placing or not placing a horse because of a rider? That is called politics and often leads to several very bad things for everyone involved, except the abuser. What happens to him is he doesn't get a shiny blue prize.

Blatant politicing will potentially hurt a shows future attendance and also the reputation of the judge, who very likely is one of the top active trainers in the industry. Gossip and hearsay does a lot of harm in this small industry where everyone knows each other or has heard of everyone else.

The best way to stop the abusers who beat their horses, don't promote the mental well being for the horse as well as the physical, who are rough and cruel in nature and in practice is on a trainer client level. If you have horses in training, it is your responsibility to know how your horse is being worked with. If it is not to your standards, find another trainer who does. If the owners keep putting money in their pockets and good high quality horses in their hands, then the trainer has no real reason to adapt and change. Many times a cruel in nature trainer wins because he has the better horse.

Being involved in the industry, by owning, showing, breeding, training, promoting and so on is the only way you will see or hear about the punishments that befall the bad. Oh boy, gossip can be fun sometimes.

Being actively involved in the breed on any level and participating is the best way to help an issue too. The Convention is coming up. Would any of you like to come in and express your concerns to the Association, BOD, registry, dignitaries, trainers, owners and general members? I can get you the date and location and agenda.
HorseSavvy and GotaDunQH like this.
    01-17-2012, 04:02 PM
I sincerely doubt they would take the complaints of someone outside the association seriously. But I think, too, that I have an ethical (or more likely legal) obligation to keep my mouth shut when it comes to naming names, as most of the mistreatment I saw occurred while I was working for the veterinarian attending to the horses. There was a whole lot going on behind the scenes that clients would likely never see or even suspect.

Can you post some photos of your show horses' shod feet?
    01-17-2012, 05:05 PM
You keep repeating the same thing over and over. I believe just about everyone knows about the issues you mention.

As everyone has said, and it is true, all disciplines have thier use vs. abuse issues. The answer is not to condemn the discipline, but rather to condemn and eliminate the negative aspects. No need to throw the baby out with the bath water...

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