Saddleseat- How has this not been outlawed? - Page 15
 
 

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Saddleseat- How has this not been outlawed?

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    01-21-2012, 03:27 PM
  #141
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by drop_your_reins    
@Bubba13 ... Names, proof? I'm sure you are correct and that is a terrible story, but it's just one. It shouldn't represent the breed and trainers as a whole. And maybe it was my mistake for including Arabs, since I admit I don't know a ton about them.. I doubt that would happen in the Morgan circuit (of which I am primarily defending). I would never use corrective shoeing on a horse in addition to padding them up for saddleseat, especially if the horse can't handle it.
I won't provide names because I really don't want a libel lawsuit on my hands, nor do I want to jeopardize my future career. I tried to out a well-known hauling company once for hideous abuse I witnessed, and was rewarded with a threatening phone call from the owner after I sent in a report to the Better Business Bureau. People are nasty, and will do horrible things to protect their reputation. Proof....well, not sure how to provide that, either. Wish I had copies of the radiographs or pictures of the feet.

Hang on....Internet's acting up. More to come....
     
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    01-21-2012, 03:41 PM
  #142
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyDreamer    
I would be MORE than happy to help answer anyone's questions they have on the issue. I want nothing more than for myths to be dispelled or miscommunications to be sorted out.
The professionals that you mentioned regarding tail cutting, what is their profession? Here in SE WI, (lots of ASB farms), vets will not do the cutting, it's done by 'someone' else, either the trainer or someone the trainer knows.
     
    01-21-2012, 03:47 PM
  #143
Banned
It is really, really hard to find photos of their feet, but I found three from the barn in question. The first one is their big-name stallion. I'm no farrier, but I've discussed this extensively with my farrier (who used to shoe for them) and with other farriers online, and yes, this creates huge lameness problems down the road--and frequently in the current day. There's a reason that horses' feet don't naturally look like this: it's not conducive to soundness. Ever heard of "long toe, low heel" syndrome, and the problems it causes? Yeah. I have personal experience with that in my horses after an experience with a very bad backyard farrier. One constantly tripped very badly but recovered once his hooves were fixed, one developed navicular and never regained soundess, and one suffered multiple tears to the deep digital flexor tendon under the coffin bone. And weighted shoes, as I've said before, multiply the effects of improper movement and are tough on joints. When you need to bolt metal bands across the top of the hoof to make the shoe stay on, you know something is wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drop_your_reins    
If we want to start discipline bashing, I can bring up a ton of horror stories in the racing industry, working western (QHs), Hunter/Jumper circuit, Dressage, etc.
Absolutely. Lord knows the horror stories I could tell about Western Pleasure barns, halter, barrel racing, and roping. But I'd argue that most everyone is so accustomed and numb to the problems in their own discipline that they fail that they fail to see what others perceive as abuse. They see it as normal, necessary, right. Not so. If you stop thinking about it from the perspective of winning in the show ring, and consider the best interest of the horse and its welfare only, you'll see that many of the things we take for granted in our own sports are honest-to-god detrimental to the horse's physical and mental wellbeing.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg feet.jpg (12.8 KB, 198 views)
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    01-22-2012, 12:32 AM
  #144
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by drop_your_reins    
I am not in denial over anything. I know that I have ambitions to bring my mare to some Morgan regionals to show in Saddleseat.......

I'm sorry that there are people out there who abuse their horses and some of those people happen to be of a saddleseat background, but the sport as a whole is not harmful to the horse.

If we want to start discipline bashing, I can bring up a ton of horror stories in the racing industry, working western (QHs), Hunter/Jumper circuit, Dressage, etc. Everyone seems to think that the EXTREMISTS in a given discipline represent the discipline as a whole.
First, please note I never said a word about Morgans. Don't know a thing about them, I'm strictly into the Arabian and Arabian X thing, don't know nor care what another breed does in their own venues. I'm just commenting that people in the Arabian industry are trying to deny that abuses exist. I'm going to say that from what I've witnessed JUST in the halter barns gives the lie to saying abuse in the performance barns doesn't exist. And not just in saddleseat.

I am not discipline bashing at all. In fact, I'll give you lick for lick with what I've seen in halter training barns, look at the ridiculous padding up they do for main ring hunter pleasure and tell me you could chase a fox with your horse shod like that......not friggin' likely. Heck, they're even padding up Western Pleasure horses because they need to move rounder.....slower.......and deadening the WP horses tails.....oh yes....it's happened in the Arabian rings. I've seen horses with their heads tied up and pvc pipes or wood blocks wired in their mouths before a WP class.....tell me the therapeutic purpose behind that, will someone? And bring the London Bridge along with you because I'm a pretty hard sell.

After 40 years in the business, I have a pretty darned good idea what goes on in the back barns behind the curtains. I stick around because I love to show and I love my horses and when we're on, we show them that you CAN do au natural, no pads, no drugs, no ties, no ginger. You may not have the chemical, enhanced version of the Stepford Horse but you can be pretty darn good.
     
    01-22-2012, 09:22 AM
  #145
Yearling
My thoughts are....there are two kinds of horse show people:

1. People with the "win at all costs" attitude
2. People WITHOUT the 'win at all costs" attitude

No discipline is immune from unsavory methods, and no breed is immune to unsavory methods, and the whole other side of the horse industry that DOES not show is not immune to unsavory methods. It comes down to which person YOU want to be....a number 1 or a number 2.

I show AQHA on a very competitive regional circuit with a competitive horse, but I have chosen to be a number 2 because I think of my horse's welfare first. And choosing to be a number 2 has not hurt my placings any; with a Top 5 and two Top 10's at our AQHA regional championship show. You don't have to succumb to the pressure of the "win at all cost" people to be just as competitive as them.
     
    02-27-2015, 10:14 AM
  #146
Foal
Saddleseat is the sport I enjoy the least. I have judged saddleseat in horse judging contests for years now, and I get so stressed about the poor animals involved. The horses show obvious signs of discomfort, and the bits are just ridiculous, double bridles... really people?! The normal saddleseat horse has drool or "foam" running down its neck, sweat covering it, and its mouth working to evade the pain from the bits. I understand every discipline has downsides, but none is so evident of abuse (mentally and physically) as the saddleseat industry.
And if you believe that tail-nicking is ok, then I question you ethically. That is abuse, even when its just a foal. Saddleseat enthusiasts never seem to come up with an ethical (or even close to good) reason for the way they treat the saddlebred breed.
Yes, saddlebreds do have a naturally high head carriage, they also have a beautiful gait. So why must people "enhance" them? People should show what the horses can really do, instead of what the "trainer" can FORCE them to do. "none are so blind, as those who refuse to see."
     
    02-27-2015, 11:33 AM
  #147
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNuturalEquine    
Saddleseat is the sport I enjoy the least. I have judged saddleseat in horse judging contests for years now, and I get so stressed about the poor animals involved. The horses show obvious signs of discomfort, and the bits are just ridiculous, double bridles... really people?! The normal saddleseat horse has drool or "foam" running down its neck, sweat covering it, and its mouth working to evade the pain from the bits. I understand every discipline has downsides, but none is so evident of abuse (mentally and physically) as the saddleseat industry.
And if you believe that tail-nicking is ok, then I question you ethically. That is abuse, even when its just a foal. Saddleseat enthusiasts never seem to come up with an ethical (or even close to good) reason for the way they treat the saddlebred breed.
Yes, saddlebreds do have a naturally high head carriage, they also have a beautiful gait. So why must people "enhance" them? People should show what the horses can really do, instead of what the "trainer" can FORCE them to do. "none are so blind, as those who refuse to see."
While foaming in conjunction with other symptoms may be worrisome, mouth foaming is encouraged in many disciplines, particularly dressage, as it shows the horse is relaxing and connecting to it's training.

Quote:
This action of the forehand into the neck cause the salivary glands to stimulate and produce more saliva, which then runs down into the mouth and is foamed by the movement of the lips and jaw. In a relaxed horse this will produce foam around closed lips. Notice in this description I have said nothing of the bit. I believe that the presence of foam has nothing to do with the bit, but is actually a product of correct body mechanics and mental state.
(source: The Fuss About Foam | Dressage Different)

Also, at least in my experience, horses are not ridden and trained in their "show tack" (bits, bridles, sometimes even shoes etc). The reason upper level riders and horses (dressage, saddleseat) should be using double bridles is that the horse has had the necessary training under it's belt to accept and understand the use of both bits. The rider also has the responsibility to use their hands, seat, leg, and artificial aids the correct and humane way.

This website Dressage Double Bridle Misconceptions explains how the use of the bridle may be abused, if the horse and rider are not properly schooled. (But can't we say the same for something as innocent as a crop?)

This Website even gives a list of prereqs one must have before using a double bridle (and that's just for the rider).
Quote:
1. Seat of the rider must be correct, with no reliance on the reins for balance in ALL gaits (including the extended gaits)
2. Steady hands
3. Body/hands remaining steady during transitions
4. Ability to weight seat bones at will
5. Control of the lower legs and spurs
6. Ability to sit in the center of the horse, both side to side and front to back
7. Ability to control the length of the reins, and to shorten/lengthen them at will
(source: An Explanation of the Full Bridle for the Rider)

I have used a majority of Dressage references as it is a much more colloquial concept to most mainstream equestrians than Saddleseat would be.

And finally, YES saddlebreds carry their head high and naturally step high, and you ask why do we as riders work to enhance this? That is what EVERY horse rider strives to do in EVERY discipline! They take a horse's natural abilities and enhance them in order for that horse to excel in a certain discipline. That's how humans work too. (example) If someone is a naturally gifted dancer, coaches strive to enhance that natural ability through practice and training. This breed of horse has a natural way of going that makes it a prime candidate for such riding:

(source: American Saddlebred Stock 5 by LuDa-Stock on DeviantArt )


(source: Charlie XIV by Jag6201 on DeviantArt )

Do not bash a riding style and tack without specifying that it is completely the fault of misinformed, unschooled riders doing things the incorrect way.
arduke, Palomine and KylieHuitema like this.
     
    02-27-2015, 11:46 AM
  #148
Weanling
I just wanted to chime in. I did some Morgan saddle seat shows with my guy when we were both younger. He was trained with a very reputable trainer. I would go everyday to ride. They do not ride everyday in those shoes, or those bits. Well at least where we were.

He had no soundness issues as he got older.

The bit on the other hand (for showing) I did not like, I tried to ride with as loose a rein as possible. We only did 2 shows (3 saddleseat classes, 2 driving) and I realized I did not like it. I know my horse didn't like it. I never saw him sweat so much from such a short class. Months later we did a couple trail rides that lasted much much longer and he barely broke a sweat.
     
    02-27-2015, 11:53 AM
  #149
Super Moderator
This thread is pretty darn old. It predates my joining Horse Forum.
     
    02-27-2015, 06:07 PM
  #150
Foal
Like others have said, you have ethical and unethical people in every discipline.

Personally, I don't like any discipline that does unnatural things to horses, whether it's nicking tails, using padded shoes or simply cutting manes real short. I think some of the things they require for showing detract from a horses natural beauty. I don't understand why disciplines/judges don't show and evaluate breeds for their natural looks, gaits and abilities.
     

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