Saddleseat- How has this not been outlawed? - Page 9
 
 

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Saddleseat- How has this not been outlawed?

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  • Will American Saddlebreds be banned from showing with built up hoves
  • Hackney pony saddle seat bits

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    05-28-2008, 03:47 AM
  #81
Started
That was probably a TWH, magic. Never in my life have I ever seen a Saddlebred with three inches of shoe. There is a lot of abuse within the breed, which I do not know enough about to comment about.

The abuse of Show TWHs does not, and should not condemn a completely different breed of horse or complete dicipline.

As well, the bad acts of one(in case that is not a TWH), should never(though it often does) taint the acts of the rest of the whole group.

Magic, I am not going to pass judgement on the person at your barn, but if that is a show horse(didn't say whether he was or not, though if he wasn't there is no reason for any of what you say the guy does. Sounds like the horse is.), my main question is why isn't he at a show barn? There are lots of factors that could contribute to that, from none being in the area, to him being kicked out of one and word got around to the others. Don't know, and not going to ask or pry to find out. Just shooting out a couple possible scenarios.

I am not going to reiterate on the tail sets, because it is all in past pages.

The "bearing rein" you refer to is actually called an overcheck. If you remember, it was not cruel in "Black Beauty" until it was cranked higher and higher and higher, passed the limits the horse could stand. It is not used like that now. Yes it is to help a horse keep his head up, and help him set his head. Keep in mind, that most Saddlebreds, and a lot of show TWHs have a naturally high set head. Their necks, ideally for saddleseat and harness divisions, should be long, graceful, come up and have a nice arch, like a chess piece. I have one three week old filly now, who has a neck like a sea horse. If you scratch her, she will literally stick her head over the middle of her back. She is a neat little sister. Sadly it looks like she has a case of lordosis, which will limit her potential.

If you watch a Fine Harness Class in any Saddlebred show, at the end of the class, you will see the "headers" come into the ring, and they will usually undo the overcheck when they are just standing in the lineup. I'll try to find a picture of the Fine Harness Saddlebred, Joe Friday. I am in love with him.

Putting an overcheck on, say, a Quarter horse, or a horse with a naturally lower headset, and expect it to carry his head high would just be foolishness. Trying to crank thier heads up, or on upheaded horses higher than they physically can, can cause restriction of the airways, and they can choke down. I have seen that quite a bit in Hackney Ponies. One actually collapsed to his knees in a class, because he just couldn't breath.

It all depends on the individual and their supposed good judgement.

A bad reputation will follow you. There is LOTS of gossip in the Saddlebred world. Seeing bad practices and poor judgement, and out and out stupid choices can damage a trainer's reputation. "Did you hear? So and so's horse collapsed in the ring. I heard he was using this and this, and his customers are pulling thier horses from his barn." People are still talking about one of the Five Gaited Championship horses, who tried to attack his rider in the ring. It was crazy and makes you wonder why a professional trainer such as the one riding would let him get that way.


The "Hobbles" you saw, were more than likely "stretchies". It is a length of surgical tubing, connected to two, usually padded, leather bracelets around the fetlocks. These are strength training devices used to help a horse learn to "use his legs" (pick them up higher). It is up to the horse whether he uses them or not, just like with chains. Usually they are fitted to the horse. I know we have about four or five sets of stretchies depending on what a horse requires.

They should never be worn for long periods of time, especially when they are first learning to wear them, as it can make thier shoulders sore. As with any training, you need to start slowly and build up.

Strength training and endurance is imperative to a show horse. We want our horses to come out of the ring looking as well as when he went in.

If you read here, this link will provide you all with many Whys to what you may see "wrong with the dicipline". http://www.american-saddlebred.com/protean/myths2.htm
If you need anything on here cleared up, I would be glad to help you.

The trimming of the forelocks is not cruel. Personally, I hate it, because it looks dumb to me, and even worse trying to grow one back.

Ask questions before passing judgements. Finding the right people to answer those questions is imperative as well. I am more than happy to tell all that you would like to know, and am pleased to know that there are many willing-to-learn minds on this forum as well.
     
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    05-28-2008, 04:40 AM
  #82
Started
Ahh yes. This reminds me of the poor Walking horses. There was a moving on The Tennesee Walking horses in horse protection I think. It's really sad and to me, the government does nothing about it. :(
     
    05-28-2008, 05:31 AM
  #83
Started
IMO, the US Government should not be responsible for every little thing that goes wrong, partly because they are the reason behind a lot of the wrong in the country. But I'll save that discussion for the next political argument. The question should be "What is the Governing Body of the Tennessee Walking Horse Association doing to put an end to the issue?" The answer is LOTS. There are many things now that are being enacted and enforced at TWH shows to help put an end to the issue.

However, the issue of soring and the discussion of the dicipline known as Saddleseat are two completely different topics. TWHs are just one breed of several that participate in the dicipline and the only one that comes to mind that knowingly inflicts pain on an animal to make it perform "better". Arabs don't, ASBs don't, National Show Horses don't, Morgans don't, just to name a few. So one out of five common breeds.

This is not a debate on Soring(or rather a discussion, because I highly doubt there would be any argument saying soring is okay). It is a discussion on a dicipline not many know all that much about. And no, it is not a common occurence in the whole of the dicipline.

If need be, another topic addressing the Soring Issue should be made.
     
    06-23-2008, 07:58 PM
  #84
Foal
It all depends on the trainer and owners. There's always going to be something bad in any discepline.
     
    06-24-2008, 07:54 PM
  #85
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyani
dressage has rollkur and 'see-sawing'; aqha halter has hypp, tiny feet and post-legs; jumping has people lifting poles to rap horses' legs; saddleseat has this crap.

You can't use some people's bad practice as reason to dump on the entire discipline. However horrific it may be, it's not everyone, and there's probably someone doing something equally horrific in the very sport you love.

But everyone else has already covered that.
HYPP is a genetic disorder, not someone abusing the animal. Should it be bred out? Of course, but it never will be due to backyard breeders. You cannot compare QH's that carry the HYPP gene to the abusive act of "Soring" ASBs.
     
    06-24-2008, 07:56 PM
  #86
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreedomRider
It all depends on the trainer and owners. There's always going to be something bad in any discepline.
I agree. I find dressage to be abusive and uncalled for but again, i'm a western rider and I do not enjoy the "sport" of Dressage. Same goes for Cross Country Jumping. To me, that's just asking for your horse to be fatally injured but to each his/her own.
     
    06-25-2008, 08:57 AM
  #87
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by irisheyes12
hypp is a genetic disorder, not someone abusing the animal. Should it be bred out? Of course, but it never will be due to backyard breeders. You cannot compare qh's that carry the hypp gene to the abusive act of "Soring" ASBs.
HYPP = deliberate breeding on a disease KNOWN to cause horrific pain and distress, perhaps even death, to an animal and it's future owners purely because it is believed the resulting hippo-horses will in more prizes (done by MANY top-end halter studs in the US, not just BYBs - money does not mean you can't be an asshat).

Soring = deliberately causing horrific pain and distress to an animal in order to create a 'pretty' effect and win more prizes.

Good comparison, I think.
     
    06-25-2008, 09:06 AM
  #88
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyani
Quote:
Originally Posted by irisheyes12
hypp is a genetic disorder, not someone abusing the animal. Should it be bred out? Of course, but it never will be due to backyard breeders. You cannot compare qh's that carry the hypp gene to the abusive act of "Soring" ASBs.
hypp = deliberate breeding on a disease KNOWN to cause horrific pain and distress, perhaps even death, to an animal and it's future owners purely because it is believed the resulting hippo-horses will in more prizes (done by MANY top-end halter studs in the US, not just BYBs - money does not mean you can't be an asshat).

Soring = deliberately causing horrific pain and distress to an animal in order to create a 'pretty' effect and win more prizes.

Good comparison, I think.
Not at all, not even close. Many breeders (and yes, it is being irresponsible) don't test for HYPP and end up putting a baby on the ground that carries the HYPP gene without doing it deliberatively. HYPP horses are no better than non HYPP carriers and starting next year they won't be allowed to show in AQHA shows anyway.
     
    06-25-2008, 10:58 AM
  #89
Green Broke
Quote:
You cannot compare qh's that carry the hypp gene to the abusive act of "Soring" ASBs.
One tiny, eensy weensy little point: You cannot sore an ASB (yes, they wear developers (sretchies) and action chains (approx. Weight = 5 oz.) ) - But, if you were to sore an ASB, they couldn't trot squarely or soundly. Period.

Horses that have been sored are found in the racking/walking horse industry (aka - they don't trot).

[ON SOAPBOX]
It is quite unfortunate that many people only associate the American Saddlebred with saddleseat riding. There are many breeds that have "saddle-type" horses. Arabs, Half Arabs, Morgans, Fresians, Hackneys, Dutch Harness Horses, Tennesee Walking Horses, Racking Horses, and Andalusians all are ridden saddleseat. (and I'm sure I've left a few out)

Saddleseat is simply a style...when performed as it should be is probably less intrusive to the horse than a heavy western saddle or a huntseat saddle with someone's lower leg always into the horse.

The saddleseat style of riding was developed for horses who are built to carry their head UP...therefore the hands sit higher on a saddleseat horse than compared to a huntseat horse. If you look at pictures of saddleseat horses ridden correctly, there is actually a straight line from the horses mouth to the rider's hands. (riding with your hands down on one of these horses and you would be jarring the bars of his mouth)

(note the straight line from the rider's hands to the horses' mouth - this is a half-arab)


And in my very humble, honest opinion, a saddleseat horse who is strutting their stuff under saddle is absolutely no different than "Joe Schmoe the Quarter Horse" flagging himself on a windy fall day.

Are there some practices in the discipline that outsiders don't (or wont) understand? Of course. Are there some breed specific practices that are questionable by all horse people? Sure.

The Walking Horse industry has been and is being proactive about solving the problem with soring. Will they fully eliminate it? Probably not, but they are trying.

What are the stock horse registries doing about punishing "trainers" who tie western pleasure horse's heads to cynder blocks while in the stall? (don't get me started on that one!) Or the western trainer who leaves a horse tied to a pole all day long to "teach him patience"? The 3 inch Cathedral bit that "trainer" puts on horse for his mostly incapable owner who has no clue how to use such a bit? Or the jumper "trainer" who raps horses legs with the poles? All of these are very well known, yet little talked about "training practices" in other disciplines...

Also in my very humble opinion, it is better to first educate yourself about things that you aren't clear on or are new to you before condemning the whole of the sport for the likes of a probable amateur who does not know the first thing about a true "saddleseat" (or western, or hunter) horse.
[OFF SOAPBOX]

PS - I love my Saddlebred!
     
    01-16-2012, 08:23 PM
  #90
Foal
Ok, I understand where you're coming from. Before I joined saddleseat, I always thought it was cruel, too. However, once I started riding saddleseat, I realized the truth. The saddlebreds love going out and having their head high with their feet coming to their chest. My saddlebred loves going out into the arena and showing everyone what he's got. We do let our horses out if we trust them enough to not hurt themselves. The problem is, saddlebreds are very high strung so it's hard to let them out into a paddock while trusting they won't break a leg. We try to work our horses for the amount of time they can handle. The saddleseat discipline may take up more energy than jumping or dressage at times because they are going, going, going nonstop so they can't always handle the hour at a time lessons that jumpers have. Yes, sometimes we do put chains on our horses hooves but they are very light and are just there to help the horses feel where their hooves are so that they can place their hooves in the right places. The tail cutting is a painless surgery they have and it does nothing but remove some of the tail bone, actually making the tail more flexible. Other than that, the tail stays perfectly normal. The tail braces aren't any more torture to the horse than a bridle, saddle, or blanket would be. All of the things we do while riding them such as using whips or chains is just to bring out their natural talent. The first time I really realized saddleseat was not a cruel discipline was when one of our saddlebreds was released to graze and she trotted with her head higher and with more motion than she ever did with a rider on her. These horses love what they do and actually sometimes "compete" with other horses when in the paddock. They'll see who can be fancier. Before you judge a discipline, please look into it or try it instead of hurting other people's feelings. This is what we do and love. This is our hobby and is just as good as dressage, jumping, or western. We love our horses and want to treat them nicely just as much as you do. Believe me, saddlebreds are one of the most pampered breeds I know and they truly do love what they do.
     

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