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Tb lineage

11K views 83 replies 19 participants last post by  CJ82Sky 
#1 ·
CJ82Sky had a good idea to start a thread on Throroughbred lineage and studs. So, I made one! :D So here's a horse just to start it off

Vision and Verse(By Storm Cat, out of Bunting)

He also happens to be my horse's sire :D. So what do you guys think of him? Feel free to add others!
 
#2 ·
Molly's Cat's grandsire is Storm Cat, she is out of Rachel Allyn and by Tomorrow's Cat. She also has Personal Flag, Northern Dancer, Secretariat (Bold Ruler x Somethingroyal), and Damascus.
Free 5-Cross Thoroughbred Pedigrees from equineline.com - Thoroughbred Pedigree now with Free Interactive Nicking

Excel is out of Vienna Dawn and by Diligence. Mr Prospector, Raise a Native, Gold Digger, Buckpasser, Marshua, Native Dancer, Nashua, Princequillo. He has a lot of linebreeding to these names.
Free 5-Cross Thoroughbred Pedigrees from equineline.com - Thoroughbred Pedigree now with Free Interactive Nicking

Sultan's Concubine is a mare we had a long time ago, out of Our Raiser and by Island Sultan, also has Bold Ruler and Bold Ruler's What a Pleasure, Princequillo, Count Fleet, Man o' War, Man o' War's War Siren, and Man o' war's War Siren.
Free 5-Cross Thoroughbred Pedigrees from equineline.com - Thoroughbred Pedigree now with Free Interactive Nicking
 
#29 ·
ok so from what i see i like molly and rachel allyn sounds nice on paper. not sure about her dam lines but her sire lines are strong and of course the storm cat lines are good and solid which is nice. i'd love to know more about her granddam lines and i asked my friend to join us in here who i talk tb lines with all the time to see if she can help :)

i'll be honest that i don't know much about excel's lines unless you go farther back and i don't feel that has nearly as much relevance. diligence looks slightly downhill to me from what i can see, but other than that nicely put together. if he's like his sire, i'm going to guess that he can get a little heavy on the fore even if not built that downhill but again i'll be honest this is just a guess. (i won't bs you - i know some lines but there are DEF more people with w LOT more knowledge than me out there!!!!) there's some nice irish and french lines in there that i like a ton not bc i know them but bc the irish and french tbs tend to be of more substantial bone (generally speaking) so making an assumption here (and hoping it was passed on to him too!). would love to see what balanced out the slightly thick neck and downhill of the top lines with the international influence of the bottom - neither do i see major flaws with - so i'd think there was a chance that while not having a ton of speed, he def has some stamina and a solid build - maybe not as leggy but certainly with some good heartgirth depth and shoulder reach and a broad hind. yes? no? i'm super curious to see - and to get morgan in here bc i think she knows more about IRE and FR lines.

k sultan's concubine (what a name lol!) - LOVE her top lines. what a pleasure and bold ruler that close are nice. island sultan was mediocre as a racehorse but the other two are a nice strong influence. again i don't know much about the dam lines - i never understood the breeding of mares line after line with no race record but that's just my personal opinion as there are plenty of mares like that producing winners. so eh who am i to say lol!

ok im beat after a long day of riding and what not. more later :) can't wait to hear more on what your horses are actually like!
 
#3 ·
nice lines! v & v is a classic miler - every time they tried him at anything over a mile he hit the board but not quite enough to be first. good stamina for a storm cat kid, and def that miler like storm cat likes to throw.

storm cat is a little over-compact for my liking but known for milers which matches his confo (IF i remember correctly). i'm guessing your horse has a short back, slightly thick neck, and small-ish head (not small but broader forehead with tapered nose that is almost QH-ish). but hey i could be wrong lol!

he's certainly athletic though not as much stamina as i like to see but the secretariat damsire in there helps quite a bit, and the crimson satan will add some fire. not a huge fan of crimson spirit for no reason other than i pefer his offspring harvard man instead who is out of rich reserve (swaps daughter - v. nice imo) and tends to throw height, leggy, and dark (personal weaknesses of mine) coupled with a thicker horse like storm cat imo would have produced more bone. anyway back to lines here.... bolero rose - crimson saint's damsire is weaker imo despite the bolero influence and better racers, i like the swaps athleticism better. anyway that can be argued as a pro or con so it's really just personal preference.


i do like the damascus > private account on the damsire side for some levelheadedness and a nice long sweeping gait. this gave your horse (again guessing) some more leg length and helped improve neck most likely, but could have also added some more slightly upright pasterns. i also like the buckpasser with damascus as that tends to make a nice tempered horse and hoist the flag and tom fool add some old school quality in there too.

so what does your horse look like based on my guesses?
i'm thinking he's good for an hour of work but after that will fatigue pretty rapidly. yes? (of course depending on fitness haha)
 
#4 ·
i always try to look at closer lines - going back nearly every TB has bold ruler, secretariat, northern dancer, or someone similar in there. damascus and buckpasser were also bred to death lol.

i find unless you are looking for a broodmare, secretariat lines mean far less to me than seeing his dam somethingroyal and/or princequillo crossed with something for a more athletic performer. don't get me wrong secretariat had some great babies but again was so overbred that the presence of his name alone doesn't mean anything to me when looking at pedigrees.

i like to look at the first two generations for what the horse will really be like to me and then look for known personality traits and/or athleticism and potential disciplines when i go a little farther back as that tends to be more general and of course the farther back you go the less influence it has.

i NEED to get my friend morgan in here - her and i go back and forth talking tb lines all day!!!
 
#5 ·
Okay CJ82Sky, tell me about Danzig. I've never been very into researching bloodlines. I mainly just look at a horse for their structure, and not really looked into their history too much, but those with Danzig that I've come across have had such pretty build. Just wondered if any have really excelled at anything outside of racing.
 
#6 ·
Wow, thanks CJ that is really detailed! And awsome! Here is his 5X pedigree(it's at the very bottom) and a picture(or maybe a couple of pix, lol!) :)
 

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#7 ·
haha my description was pretty accurate sweet!!!!
it's kinda a crapshoot at that (just like breeding) to try to guess based on lines alone but love when i am right :D

here's a TB i like despite true lack of racing history - soundness and longevity -
Mr Leader Horse Pedigree

something else most people looking at race history don't consider is that most studs run for only a few years and are retired to stud & pasture before every proving longevity and soundness. here's a horse that lived to 33 w/o issue which is rare to begin with and unheard of as a TB. but to me that's a big win in any lines. (he's also a hail to reason offspring which is the sire of halo who i love).
 
#11 ·
at a quick glance i like.

deputy minister is a little far back for my liking but i'm extremely biased as i have 2 DM horses. i'd prefer to see war deputy there rather than dehere but again that's be being biased since dehere is solid. finality is also nice and loves turf which usually carries over to a decent eventer however he's a bit long backed for what i like - and based on the below im guessing your boy would make a nice hunter/eq horse over dressage's rounder movement.

on the bottom you have halo's son devil's bag which is prob my favorite halo colt second only to the great sunday silence. if only that went to devil his due rather than diablo you'd have even more stamina there! Diablo's a looker, but also long backed and high withered so i'm guessing based on lines your guy has broad shoulder and is top narrow/base wide (oooh fun saddle fitting haha). slightly long in the back and loin with a good shoulder angle that will help make up for that. despite that, the deputy minister and halo influences probably gave him a decent hind end for a smooth jump though he can tend to get a little flat/long OF and prefers a long spot.

tell me how i did!
 
#17 ·
looking now.

offhand her dam lines are very weak (racing wise).

<disclaimer>oh and PLEASE know im looking at TB RACING LINES. if i say dam lines suck, that doesn't mean YOUR horse sucks, just that for racing, the dam is unimpressive lol. just wanted to clarify that!!!</disclaimer>

anyway yeah weak dam lines. storm cat holds true to stamp his get so what i said above still applies. compact-ish qh looking (almost not quite as thick) little longer in the back. overall im going to guess the storm cat type look, athletic build, energetic then tires out after about 40 min or so. sorry i can't say more as dam lines are a big fat question mark lol and im not gonna make stuff up just to ramble ;)
 
#13 ·
oooh i should have told you to not show me pics first so i can guess based on bloodlines haha!!!! darnit. ok will check her out shortly. and i still owe a danzig review (not my fave stud but not that i dislike his lines either - so i just need to dig a little more before spewing off opinions lol!)
 
#15 ·
nevermind haha bc i don't see much in those lines other than way back. most of lady's lines were unraced. i'm guessing that it was a smaller breeder from the looks of it - but also seem to have a good eye for confo from what i can find. so many never had starts. im guessing they were bred to be riding horses not racehorses bc it is odd to have 3 generations with next to no race history whatsoever.

lady never broke her maiden in 4 tries (Horse Stat Profile Page for Soy La Una) and was intelligently retired from racing, im guessing sound. from the looks of it, she doesn't have a strong pedigree to run and that seems to be holding true, but nicely put together lineage - which hard to tell from the pics but she looks nice to me running and playing! that i assume someone didn't care if these horses were pushed or not bc they had potential in other areas as well.

wish i could tell you more but she's from semi-obscure lines (good stuff farther back but like i said i look at closest 2-3 gens.).

i assume you didn't breed her for racing right?
 
#16 ·
CJ82Sky,

No I wasn't the original breeder. She came to me as a 16yr.old. She went on from her poor racing career to be a fantastic jumper. And when turned out to play would just breeze and breeze. Loves to run, but as you know didn't and doesn't have the speed.

We love her. I don't know if it was the way she was raised, but she has never become an affection horse. Pretty much, put the hay there, clean my corral, make sure my water is cleaned and filled, and I'll take a few apples and carrots as soon as you have time. The only way I know that she truly loves me, is she's saved my butt over jumps a number of times. Caught me on her neck, before I could finish my free fall.
 
#18 ·
awesome! yeah she's damn athletic looking and i love that while having semi-unknown lines, that people RETIRED her and didn't go and keep trying to run her! she def is built for jumping from your pics :) yay happy retired racehorse stories!
 
#19 ·
Thanks!

I wouldnt really say she is QH-ish, but she is a little on the smallish side for a TB. I dont think her back is too long, do you?

She does have a bit of a refined head I believe, its not big and bulky. She wears a cob size as you can see this halter is huge on her (it was my old QH's halter).

Head


Body (Please ignore the weight, I have only had her 2 months and have her on a new diet):


I am kinda sad to hear about the lack of endurance since I would like to Event with her, but maybe that's something we can overcome with fitness. I have noticed that she becomes winded fairly easily, however I have attributed that to the fact that she is just now 5 and hasnt had much as far as consistent work in the last year.
 
#20 ·
dubya - please note my assessment is based on limited line knowledge and in no way translates to her total potential!

id think with condition she'd be great for eventing. remember you're still all in talking less than an hour of work. i think she'd struggle with something like hunter paces but only time will tell. that's something that needs more stamina bc it can be 30 - 40 jumps up to 3'6" over 12+ miles. WAY more than an event course of 1/4 that!

don't stress it. and whenever you are unsure - remember john henry!
 
#21 ·
i've found conformation and bloodlines are a great study but real life heart means a lot more.

just look at john henry who at nearly EVERY stage of his life was a conformational nightmare! yet was horse of the year twice with enough winnings to put all the rest to shame!


 
#23 ·
i'm out for the nite! i'll get back to you on danzig over the weekend i promise :)

anyone want to take a stab at crimsonsky's horse? i already know about the horse so i'll leave that for someone else. enjoy guys!


have a great weekend :)
 
#24 ·
I don't know a lot about this stuff it's so interesting to learn!

Crimson, Shasta and captain hook are related! =). She also is from hyperion. I'm sure this is probably not a big deal and happens all the time but this is the first time I have seen it so it's cool for me!

CJ what do you think about Seattle slew offspring?
 
#30 ·
oooh alydar 2nd generation back?! impressive! hmm alyfoe was unraced and just used as a stud - wonder why? anyone know? i'll try to find out more if i have time. ugh they raced the daylights out of arunj the poor mare. 4th generation is SUPER strong as well though farther back too - i think despite it being farther back with all those strong influences that it could still show through. interesting - ridan is a great sprinter - nice mix of stamina and speed - so while alyrunj wasn't a good runner, i'm guessing there's some really nice athleticism in there with decent fire and stamina. interesting indeed :)
 
#28 ·
oooh don't know much about him - tell me more i want to learn!!! thanks!!!

going to catch up on some of these in a few.

haven't personally handled seattle slew offspring so i can't say - the lines i comment more about personality on are the ones that i also have handled their offspring. don't like to speak about things that i haven't experienced. i have heart they are very athletic and can be quite versatile depending on the dam.

danzig i knew a few horses with his lines but for the LIFE of me i can't remember which ones. the one im thinking of is a cherokee run / buckpasser / damascus offspring and i keep thinking it's him but it's not and it is driving me insane.
 
#31 ·
Sky! I have a few questions for ya, if you can take on the challenge ;)

-What lines/sires do you warn against as far as temperment goes? I've heard that storm cat's foals/grand foals(?) can be pretty hot.
-What lines/sires produce the best movement off the track?
-What lines/sires are best to look at for eventing and hard core performance, and what are the worst?

All generally, of course! :) I know not ALL foals by one sire/line are the same.
 
#32 ·
eeks i NEED to get morgan in here lol. her and i debate this sort of thing all the time damn (and it's fun bc of course it's all opinion!).

see i've heard storm cat isn't that hot - but i tend towards hotter.
2 of my tbs are War Deputy/Crimson Satan horses which are hot, and can be nasty. Harvard Man offspring isn't nasty but can be flighty ime.
Sky Wars Horse Pedigree
however i love them - sky is a kickass hunter pace horse & jumper and opal is a great eventer and jumper. both can be complete spazzes, and strong willed, both are buckers and rearers (not mean anymore now that they are over 10 haha but they still have it in them and aren't afraid to voice their opinions when they disagree with something). but both are amazingly athletic and will try their heart out for you when you have a connection with them and you're doing something they love. i'd say something with a little less fire would be better for eventing so that you can have better brains there haha. but they both move amazingly (opal approved Old NA Main Mare book just a few points away from premium) and sky - well here...


Sunday Silence was amazing with a good temperament, yet most other Halo offspring are not (and SS babies are hard to find as he stood at stud in japan). i'd kill for an SS baby - not just because of his reputation, but because of his heart and athleticism and because i grew up watching him race and will never forget seeing his preakness win - and his breeder's cup classic win. in all of his starts he was never less than 2nd, and him and easy goer had a rivalry for the ages. i was always upset that he just missed the triple crown!

my fave race pics are from this season (with the exception of secretariat of course) - the slightly larger easy goer, to the smaller, scrappier, bigger heart (imo) sunday silence.
it was riveting watching them go stride for stride in the stretch with unreal timing - legs moving identically yet again! i was screaming at the tv in excitement! sunday silence won by a nose.



look at that finish you can barely see there are two horses there - it was unreal!!


so back to halo - i like them and sunday silence def had some fire to him, but stay away from ANYTHING silver ghost. a friend of mine said he's had experience with his offspring and they are nasty. SG himself needs multiple handlers and is a nightmare from what i've been told to get him to the breeding shed. ugh.


damascus and buckpasser i have seen some nice hunters from and cherokee run had an offspring (wish i could remember his registered name) that was leggy, 17h, flat kneed mover that cleaned up rated hunters. nice looking totally calm boy too!

for eventers i think it's so much about heart - and less about bloodlines. if sky didn't hate eventing he'd be amazing. (yeah i know he loves hunter paces - don't ask. i did mention he's slightly psychotic right?! we once dq'd from a rater jumper show for lack of forward movement bc he just froze and had a temporary brain explode moment and stood stock still... *sigh* but as long as we do paces now he's insanely happy and will do some shows here and there haha). his sister is a nut on paces, but is willing to event and gamey as hell over jumpers. both are unbelievably athletic. i stay away from horses with short speed (7 furlongs and less) as to me that usually shows speed with lack of stamina and that can work for jumpers but i want a horse for eventing that can hold their own and not peter out on me. i'll check race records of first 2 gens to see length of races and results and get an idea of past perf and go from there.

for eventers i look at heart, bone (not a fan of lighter built tbs anyway regardless of height) and check lines to see if i can find info on soundness. the hard thing with TBs is so many race a handful of times and are retired and never tested to see what their longevity really is - so in essence we're breeding tons of horses that we have no idea if they will be sound or not long term. finding lines with history of longevity speak monuments to me when it comes to eventing.

also for research i use
equibase.com
brisnet.com
pedigreequery.com
and of course lots of google searches and a few other sites that have race horse history!
 
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