Why do many Arabian ads say No Minstril breeding? - Page 2
 
 

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Why do many Arabian ads say No Minstril breeding?

This is a discussion on Why do many Arabian ads say No Minstril breeding? within the Horse Breeds forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category
  • Black arabian homozygous stallion
  • minstril arabian stallion yes or no

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    08-28-2012, 04:25 AM
  #11
Weanling
It also causes horses to produce only certain colors, ie The Minstril is a black Homozygous sire. Homozygous is explained at the following link:

Homozygous Black coat color genetics explained
     
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    08-28-2012, 09:56 AM
  #12
Started
Innnnteresting! A rescue Arab I picked up was sired by The Minstril and he originally sold for $50,000.00. (I got him for $250). I was told he was "pure Egyptian" on an Egyptian Arab forum.

Are you SURE The Minstril is black homozygous? Because he doesn't look black: The Minstril Arabian (pic appears if you hover over the little picture symbol next to his name) and this is a pic of one of his offspring:
     
    08-28-2012, 02:37 PM
  #13
Yearling
I always thought he was bay. It's been years and years ago that I worked in an Arabian barn but Minstril was one of the sires they used and all I picture from memory is bay.
     
    08-28-2012, 03:23 PM
  #14
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by QtrBel    
I always thought he was bay. It's been years and years ago that I worked in an Arabian barn but Minstril was one of the sires they used and all I picture from memory is bay.
Yes, he was:
     
    08-29-2012, 08:07 PM
  #15
Weanling
I know that he wasn't black himself, a lot of his progeny were black and bay
     
    08-29-2012, 08:19 PM
  #16
Weanling
TERMINOLOGY RELATED TO COAT COLOR GENETICS:

GENE: The genetic coding or DNA sequences that determine horse coat color. These 'Genes' are located on strands of protein located in the nuclei of cells.

GENOTYPE: What the genes or specific genetic coding is.

PHENOTYPE: What the horse actually looks like.

HOMOZYGOUS/HETEROZYGOUS: Refers to the gene pairs at a specific location on the protein strand. If the genes are identical, they are Homozygous. If the genes are different, they are Heterozygous.


HOMOZYGOUS BLACK EXPLAINED:

Black And Red are the two basic pigment colors of the horse. Black is dominant. Red is recessive. The Black and Red pigment genes or the "E" Genes are symbolized as follows:

BLACK (DOMINANT):
EE - HOMOZYGOUS BLACK
Ee - HETEROZYGOUS BLACK

RED (RECESSIVE):
Ee - HOMOZYGOUS RED

Each horse possesses one pair of "E" (Extension) genes or, basic pigment color genes. The offspring that result from the mating of two horses inherits one basic pigment color gene from each parent. Currently there is a DNA-based test called the Red Factor Test, which will determine which genes are present. See the VGL-UC DAVIS RED FACTOR TEST for additional information.

A Homozygous Black (EE) can only pass on the dominant "E" black gene, while the Heterozygous Black (Ee) is able to pass on either the dominant black gene "E" or the recessive red gene "e". A horse must inherit the recessive "e" gene from each parent to be red. Therefore, it is genetically impossible for a Homozygous Black to produce a red foal since there is no recessive red "e" gene to pass on.

Other coat color variations and shades of color occur as a result of the effects of separate, "modifying" genes located at other "spots" or "loci" on the DNA strand. For example, the "A" (Agouti) gene effects the expression of black coat color in horses at times. The "A" gene does not visibly effect red horses since there is no black pigment.


A (Dominant) - Causes the black pigment to be restricted to the points of the horse (mane, tail, legs) with red expressed across the rest of the body. The horse is Bay.

A (Recessive) - Does not restrict the black pigment. The black color is fully expressed across the entire body. The horse is black.

A Homozygous Black (EE) horse will always produce black offspring, not bay, when mated with a sorrell/chestnut whose sire and dam were both black. A black crossed with a black will always produce a black, not bay, if at least one parent is Homozygous Black (EE). If both sire and dam are Heterozygous (Ee), the chance of a black offspring is 75% with a 25% chance for red.

Here is one of the sources on The Minstril:

The Minstril | Black Arabian Stallion Homozygous | Arabian Foals Black & Homozygous Black
     
    08-29-2012, 08:28 PM
  #17
Super Moderator
This thread is crazy old...
     
    08-29-2012, 09:28 PM
  #18
Trained
I own a grandson of the Minstril and he is homozygous black also
He is also straight eygptian and asil. My stallion is 1/2 polish arab also but I do own his half sister and she is very nice . Together they have produced some very nice black rabicano fillies. Can't wait for the next one in April. Shalom
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    09-01-2012, 09:48 AM
  #19
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacabreMikolaj    
Agreed with Eastowest. Although some doubt lingers, the Egyptian Arabians are considered the most pure of all the strains. Having No Minstril in a pedigree based on impurity would mean all non-Al Khamsa lined horses would have essentially the same message. Over-use weakens a bloodline, so horses are often listed as not having a major bloodline to promote their use within a breeding program that has that bloodline. I love the Crabbet lines for their athletic prowess and thicker lines, but I would avoid Crabbet breeding at all costs when breeding my mare because she has *Raffles in her pedigree so many dang times, you'd swear you were drunk looking generations back. For the most part, the lines have filtered out a bit as the Crabbet breeding has all but disappeared in current day and age, but I'd still rather not take the chance of inbreeding her back to a horse with *Raffles as many times in his pedigree as in hers.

An interesting fact is there was a huge uproar back in the 70's and 80's over Russian bred Arabians. I'm not sure how much truth is lent to it, but the general conviction was that they were not pure due to them regularly being 16hh+ in a generation when Arabians rarely saw above 15hh. If you get a look at some old Russian bloodline, I can see it being truthful as they really lacked the uniform Arabian look of the time.
Didn't AHA pull the papers on a large number of Russian Arabians when that investigation was going on?

As far as The Minstril the purity issue comes into play as well as the fact that he was overbred to the point for awhile it was hard to find something that was not bred or doubled back to him. I've seen some very nice Minstril bred horses and I've seen some that looked like they were put together by a committee topped off with horrid legs O.o

I wouldn't rule out Minstril breeding if the mare was nice but it would depend heavily on what else was in her pedigree. Even though the opinion may slowly be turning now, for awhile Middle Eastern buyers wouldn't touch the bloodline and for farms whose financial survival meant overseas sales it was a big concern. Of course, this didn't seem to be realized until the market was saturated with Minstril breeding.

I don't have Datasource anymore, but does anyone know how many horses are by The Minstril? I think it's over 1,000 but could be mistaken. When you take into account that the Straight Egyptian lines comprise only 3% of the Arabian population total, that's pretty heavy breeding for one stallion.
     
    09-01-2012, 09:56 AM
  #20
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArabBossMare    
Didn't AHA pull the papers on a large number of Russian Arabians when that investigation was going on?

As far as The Minstril the purity issue comes into play as well as the fact that he was overbred to the point for awhile it was hard to find something that was not bred or doubled back to him. I've seen some very nice Minstril bred horses and I've seen some that looked like they were put together by a committee topped off with horrid legs O.o

I wouldn't rule out Minstril breeding if the mare was nice but it would depend heavily on what else was in her pedigree. Even though the opinion may slowly be turning now, for awhile Middle Eastern buyers wouldn't touch the bloodline and for farms whose financial survival meant overseas sales it was a big concern. Of course, this didn't seem to be realized until the market was saturated with Minstril breeding.

I don't have Datasource anymore, but does anyone know how many horses are by The Minstril? I think it's over 1,000 but could be mistaken. When you take into account that the Straight Egyptian lines comprise only 3% of the Arabian population total, that's pretty heavy breeding for one stallion.
Allbreedpedigree.com provides free geneology for 5 generations before, go to REPORTS and chose PROGENY from the drop down menu:

The Minstril Arabian
     

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