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Worst crosses you have heard of?

This is a discussion on Worst crosses you have heard of? within the Horse Breeds forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category
  • Worst quarter horse bloodlines
  • Shalom andalusians

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    12-17-2012, 05:33 PM
  #111
Trained
I am fully aware that Icelandics do not carry arab blood but ALL horse of SPAINISH type do. That is a historical FACT.
The muslims conqured an area larger than the Roman Empire within 100 years of Mohammed founding Islam.
They conqured north Africa and introduced the arab into the local horse populations wherever they ruled including Spain. The Barb carries Arab blood as well as fewer ribs vertabraes and other ARAB traits. The Andulusian carries Arab AND Barb blood.
Now if you refuse to acknowledge historical facts then that is your perogative. Shalom
     
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    12-17-2012, 07:11 PM
  #112
Trained
allow me to apologize

Sorry for the stong tone of my above post . Just because I do not agree gives me no right to be a rude arrogant know it all.
Thanks for the link provided and I will read it later.
Again allow me to apologize. Shalom
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    12-18-2012, 01:46 AM
  #113
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbarabians    
Peruvians, andulusions, and even mustangs are directly related to the Barb and the Arabian that was brought into Spain after the Muslims conquered Spain and ruled it for several hundred years.
So yes Peruvians as well as paso finos DO have arab blood in their ancestory. That is a historical fact. The Spainish even brought arabs over in ships to the new world. Shalom

The Spanish imported Iberians; Barbs, Jennets, Andalusians, and some Portugese Sorraia and maybe Lusitano. Not necessarily Arabians (Arabians are NOT Iberian). Paso Fino and Peruvian Paso's, no relation between the two, but both developed from Barb, Andalusian, and Jennets. Jennets are Barb based and gaited.

When you say mustang, you need to be very specific. There are very few isolated strains that reach back to Iberian blood (the Riddle Kigers, the Steens Kigers, and the Currituck Wild Horses in NC). Most "mustangs" are feral domestic horse blood from ranch stock that are so bred down with modern released breeds that they cannot trace back the Iberian blood.

Arabians were very isolated to their people because they were so prized. Marwari, Barb, Akhal-Teke, Caspians are similar breeds that were around the same time in different areas that served the same purpose as war horses and developed other breeds.




Just sayin'.
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    12-18-2012, 02:47 AM
  #114
Foal
Xlntperuvian, dbarabians, I think you both are correct. "peruvian is correct that the south americans that created the peruvian breed used no arabians in their foundation or subsequent stock. However, arabian is correct that all of the progenitor breeds used including the barb have arabian in their lines. Ironicly, I own both a peruvian and a kiger mustang. Both of which get a lot of their influence from the barb and spanish horses.
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    12-18-2012, 03:09 AM
  #115
Weanling
Any cross can be good and any cross can be horrible. It's all in the individual pairing of the two animals. Choose animals that complement each other. Don't just throw two horses together in a thoughtless breeding.
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    12-18-2012, 03:38 AM
  #116
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by old97fan    
xlntperuvian, dbarabians, I think you both are correct. "peruvian is correct that the south americans that created the peruvian breed used no arabians in their foundation or subsequent stock. However, arabian is correct that all of the progenitor breeds used including the barb have arabian in their lines. Ironicly, I own both a peruvian and a kiger mustang. Both of which get a lot of their influence from the barb and spanish horses.
Back when Arabians, Barbs, Akhal-Teke's first existed, no one can be sure which came first. There was no breed then. There was regional type. And they may have all come from one totally different breed like something akin to the Tarpan or Przewalski. We don't know.

Andalusians were created from Sorraia and Barb, but not Arabian. I don't believe genetic markers ever traced Andalusian back to Arabian bloodlines like they did the Barb and Sorraia, and Andalusian blood lines are **** well near perfectly recorded. Sorraia is like the Tarpan and Przewalski, older than Arabian. Sorraia was the "type" that influenced Southern Europe.

You can't just say that Arabian was the end all be all, because the breed that exists today was unknown that far back in civilization. They can genetically test for certain markers that exist in todays breeds that were thought to be other breeds. That is why we know Kigers are "true" mustangs, they have the markers from Sorraias and other Iberian based breeds that were imported by Spain and Portugal. And you can't say the Sorraia was influenced by the Arabian, or that the Arabian influenced the Iberian breeds. The Barb is not considered to have been influenced by the Arabian. I believe they probably grew up along side each other, maybe came from another base type.

Same thing with the Akhal-Teke. It's the chicken and the egg question, which came first. It is known that Akhal-Tekes were well hidden by their tribes, and so were Arabians. Why would they have influenced each other in completely different geographical areas when they were hidden? Developed from a base type, probably. Influenced each other? Probably not.
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    12-18-2012, 07:36 AM
  #117
Trained
While the arabs built their empire they did so on the back of the arabian horse. They did indeed protect the mares thinking that once bred to an impure stallion the mare would become impure.
They gave the horses as gifts and distributed them throughout their empire. They used their stallion to breed to local mares to improve the horses. This brought the arab into Europe.
The Barb and the Arab are very similair and probably developed from the same subtype of horse.
Only those horses that are considered primitive or were isolated do not carry arab blood.
This is acknowledged by all authors of books about the different breeds.
Andulusians are known to have been infused with arab and barb bllod. The Lusistiano though has had very little added.
In Spain I have seen some nice arab heads on some Andulusians and while living in Israel and visiting Egypt, Jordan and Turkey did not see many horses with extreme dished heads.
Whatever we beleive as individuals does it really matter as long as we acknowledge theat each breed worthy?
I have ridden Peruvians and Paso Fino, they got that "heat" from somewhere fun to ride but I did not like the gaits. Shalom
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    12-18-2012, 03:09 PM
  #118
Foal
Respectfully, Joi if you are going to make final statements like "Andalusians were created from Sorraia and Barb, but not Arabian" then you should study a little more factual history. The purest bloodline of the Andalusian is considered to be the Carthusian bloodline. The Carthusian monks protected their particular strain of Andalusion with the fervor of religious zealotry. They have well documented their infusions of Arabian blood as well as Neapolitan blood. This particular bloodline also shows the most similar physical traits to the Arabian. Most of the other bloodlines also show at least some infusion of Arabian. Also something that can't be ignored is that during the time of the Moorish occupation of Spain, while the Moors tried to protect their arabian bloodlines with the threat of capital punishment. Their genetic input was highly sought by the Spanish and numerous instances of covert cross breeding with the spanish breeds was accomplished INCLUDING in the early andalusian horse.
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    12-18-2012, 06:43 PM
  #119
Foal
Dr. Deb Bennett

Quote:
Originally Posted by old97fan    
respectfully, Joi if you are going to make final statements like "Andalusians were created from Sorraia and Barb, but not Arabian" then you should study a little more factual history.
Dr. Deb Bennett, Ph.D. Included three charts in her book Conquerors: The Roots of New World Horsemanship that illustrate the development of the Spanish Breeds and other breeds in the Americas. There are NO crosses with Arab blood in what she terms the "Old Andalusian", nor are there any Arab crosses with the Spanish Jennets that would become the "Jamaica Horses" or Pasos.

Dr. Bennett actually shows the Arabian Breed developing as an offshoot of the "Oriental" lineage and the Barb as an offshoot of the Jennet, which itself was developed as a cross between "Draft" and "Orientals". And according to her chart, the Arabian isn't crossed with the Andalusian until well after the Spanish colonization of the Americas.

Ill try to scan the charts and piece them together into one and then we can discuss. But - I'd like to move this discussion to a separate thread as we seem to be hijacking the original post. Not sure exactly when I'll be able to scan and post as I need to get the software for my printer/scanner installed on my new PC. Now where's that disc?....
     
    12-18-2012, 08:17 PM
  #120
Foal
I have a mare who is a Tennessee Walking Horse, Missouri Foxtrotter, and a Quarter Horse cross. She is my first horse and she was also untrained, she's been the easiest horse to train.
     

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