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Wow this is terrible!!!

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        12-30-2007, 02:26 PM
      #11
    Started
    They do take it to the max with all the competitions and all the profit! I think its cool though!
         
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        01-02-2008, 04:20 AM
      #12
    Foal
    No offence but I don't see why you dislike saddleseat so much.

    There is only really one class of horses that abuse is prominate, and even now they are cracking down very hard on it.

    Just because someone does not agree with you does not mean you need to bash them in posts. I'm sorry but this just my opinion....
         
        01-02-2008, 05:42 AM
      #13
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tessa Bear
    no offence but I don't see why you dislike saddleseat so much.

    There is only really one class of horses that abuse is prominate, and even now they are cracking down very hard on it.

    Just because someone does not agree with you does not mean you need to bash them in posts. I'm sorry but this just my opinion....
    you may want to talk about the saddleseat subject in the saddleseat thread. I believe she is talking about reining in this thread
         
        01-03-2008, 08:41 PM
      #14
    Weanling
    I'd just like to say that every discipline in horsemanship where the horse doesn't perform like it would in a pasture is extreme, dangerous and sometimes unhealthy.

    Show jumping:

    Horses are not deer. They are not built to handle impact to their joints like deer...period.

    Dressage.

    NO ONE uses horses for military anymore. NO ONE. Therefore all those fancy pirouettes and stuff are useless and impractical...although pretty to watch.

    Rodeo (cow roping and Bronc Riding and wild Mare Race):

    No respectable cowboy would EVER treat a horse or a cow that way.. Both of those animals are worth money. Anyone that has a working ranch and raises cows would NEVER treat animal that way. And they would be disgusted with people that do.

    Gaited Horse Shows:

    I'm not sure what the point is...other than to see a horse walk strangely...and who can do it the best. Lol.

    Horse racing and Steeplechase:

    CRUEL!!!! You want to talk about abuse! Racing babies is not my idea of a good time.Then abusing them and throwing them away because they don't win. Rubbish. I want to take all of the racing TB's and keep them in a barn where nice people won't ride them till their bones harden and they're mentally ready for riding safely. Plus I'll go back to my show jumping statement for steeplechase in saying that horses are NOT DEER! Period.

    Reining and Barrel Racing:

    Both hard on the joints but I would say kinder to the mouth than some dressage people, although I have seen some women really crank on their horses mouths for barrels, which isn't nice.

    IN SUMMATION!!! People use horses for unnatural things that they don't do in the wild, which can be considered cruel...I know that it's about a relationship with your animal and that you're doing something that is really unique to watch and all....And don't get me wrong! I'm a western and english girl! I do jumping and reining and all, but all disciplines are mean in some way or another, because none of them are natural.. Don't try to tell me that a horse trots in place in the wild (dressage people) and don't tell me that a horse spins on its heels (reining people). It just doesn't happen.
         
        01-03-2008, 09:06 PM
      #15
    Yearling
    Very well said alucard! :)
         
        01-06-2008, 11:40 AM
      #16
    Foal
    I don't want to start a whole dramatic scene, and I agree with a lot of the points stated above, however...I have to speak up and say something about the racing part. You even stated in your post that none of those disciplines were natural to a horse if they were out in the pasture...the only one that is, is racing. Horses in the wild run, it's the most natural thing for them. Therefore, racing would be one of if not the most "natural" discipline.

    Now, i'm not trying to start chaos or specifically argue your points, and some of them are correct, but it's not fair to say they're all treated cruelly and abuse and thrown away. That's nuts. Most of those horses on the backside are treated better than any people back there, or better yet, horses anywhere else. This really bothers me, just like the usual "TB's are crazy" stereo-typical statements. And "TB's aren't trained"....just because they aren't trained for the discipline that you bought them for off the track, certainly doesn't mean that they aren't trained. They are very well trained, for the racing discipline. Where else will you find such well-broke 2 y/os? These horses see chaos and crazy / scary things every day. They really are broke to a lot. Anyway i'm getting off track here, back to my point. Most of these horses are treated very well, get very well groomed, cared for, their legs are done up every day, etc, etc.

    Don't get me wrong, just as there is in any part of the business, there are animals that aren't treated like they should be, and some do end up at the sales, but not like they make it out to be. This is infuriating to read, when i've been to numerous QH farms they believe in the "Submission" training, and keep them tied up for hrs and hrs on end, same with polo ponies, and many others. I've seen many other breeds at the sales, but still yet, people for some reason want to focus in on the TB's and rant an rave and give the racing industry a bad name. Yes, unfortunately sometimes horses have fatal injuries, but as many horses that run and as many races that are run on a daily basis in this country, it's minimal. There are a lot of rules and restrictions on horses able to run, drug rules, etc, etc. Just as much as there are unfortunately fatal injuries on the track, there are horses starving and having fatal injuries on the farm. Another thing, when horses are injured or have a bout of colic or anything like that on the track, you almost never hear of the owner putting them down, unless they have exhausted all other options. You almost never hear of an owner that wont do surgery for colic or to remove chips, etc, etc. On the other hand, you hear it all the time for simple ranch horses that they think just don't deserve the money wasted.

    I understand there are some things in the business that aren't right, but I felt as though I needed to somewhat defend it, because some of those points quite honestly just weren't fair to say.
         
        01-06-2008, 04:28 PM
      #17
    Weanling
    Back east, my mother had many many friends that would rescue TB's from racing. They weren't crazy, and I NEVER said anything about TB's being crazy, but they were clearly unhappy. One of my mothers friends adopted one that his owners and trainers would shock him with cattle prods when he lost a race and they would beat him in his stall daily, and when they put him in the rack they would whip him so he would jump out of there as fast as possible. I dissagree with you that there are more nice people in the industry than mean. I think that once you get up to the national races and such those horses are treated better but that still doesn't rule out abuse. Their 2 year olds for crying out loud! No 2 year old horse is mentally ready for that.

    TB's grow very fast. They are probably the fastest growing and maturing horses out there, but their bones are not hard and their knees are not fused so all that impact they take from racing ruins them. Also, you talk about horse racing as a natural thing in the wild......no. Horses in the wild run, they don't race, and they certainly don't race 2 miles when they're two. Doesn't happen. Short sprints yes, cantering and galloping yes, but racing like they do on the track, no. Horse racing is taking something that a horse does naturally, run, and exploiting it to the very extreme.

    And, 2 year old TB's aren't "well broke" They are trained to tolerate someone on their back that weighs 70 lbs and all they are "broke" to do is run. Not show collection or any respect for the bit but run.

    As for colic surgery, there is no garuntee that a horse will recover fully or at all, or if they do, they are prone to colic after that. Horses take an extremely long time to heal too, so when Barbaro shattered his leg, and he got surgery to fix it and they only gave him however many months to heal before racing him again? My best estimate is that his leg was not healed, thus it shattered again and they put him down. That doesn't sound like responsible horsemanship to me. That sounds like using the animal for the maximum amount of profit possible.

    Ranch horses have a job. They don't start their training until about 4 when their bones harden. The people that use them treat them with the best respect (usually, there are exceptions everywhere) and they recieve care. Ranch horses are treated like this because the people that own them realize that they need them to do their jobs. It's like a vehical. If you want it to be reliable, you change it's oil, you make sure the engine is working properly and you give it the right gas. If you rally the car and don't take care of it it's not going to work properly. If you ask a horse to do extraordinary things, it will exhaust itself. This is true for all dosciplines, including racing. I would guess that's why the number of OTTB's in slaughter houses is high. It's easier to get rid of something that won't perform the way you want it to work with it and make it better.

    I have no idea where you get the submission training from. No one I know or read about does that. You said that TB's are so broke they're around all that noise and chaos but they act good....every time I see a TB before they race or a racing TB period, it's all the rider can do to keep the horse at a walk, and it's not calm by any means. Every rescued TB that I've ever heard about has only known how to run run run, and only take left turns. Reining horses HAVE to maintain a calm temperment, and they certainly don't look nervous at all, same with Dressage horses and some Showjumpers. Racing TB's don't have that because they were never trained to have that.

    ON A SIDE NOTE: It's easier to make money on the racing industry because they use those horses so young and they go through them so much. With Reining and Dressage, it's unusual to have a horse compete that's younger than 9 usually because they take time to train those horses and they make sure that their bones and muscles are ready to handle the competions...plus they are ready mentally at that age to handle the amount of stress. Don't try to tell me that racing is more mentally strenuous than Dressage. All racers have to know is RUN RUN RUN, think about how many things a Dressage horse has to know. Or a reining horse. ShowJumpers compete from 6-15 or so depending on the horse, but then again, they need that time to have their knees fuse so they can handle the impact of jumping. Something that racing TB's don't get. ( but, horses are not deer.....so jumping like that is eventually wears down their joints)

    I would agree with you that some people that race TB's treat them well. As well as you can treat a baby 2 year old that hasn't had a chance to be a horse yet.
         
        01-06-2008, 04:42 PM
      #18
    Yearling
    ^^^I agree.
         
        01-06-2008, 06:06 PM
      #19
    Trained
    ^^^ I also agree. How can putting a 2 year old into fully fledged racing be justified in any way? In dressage or any of the other disciplines, a 2 year old will only just be starting and that's a 2 year old that is closer to a three year old. By 5 or 6 a racing tb is done. Finished. And then cast aside for the next baby to take its place. I've seen it over and over again.

    And how many tb's retire at 3 or 4 with bowed tendons and other miscellaneous injuries that leave them like this for the rest of their life??!! Its the harsh reality of the racing industry. We can close our eyes to it as much as we want but that doesnt take away how it really is. "breaking" too young...racing too young...whipping them to get that extra lit bit out...etc etc IMO there is no justification for this.

    I know in other industries the less responsible people can do much of the same thing but it is usually frowned upon but, when a 2 year old wins the melbourne cup everyone goes 'wow! She must be a great horse to win at the age of two'. And yes, it may well be a great horse but not for long. And then it will be sold to an owner that really cares and will be properly broken so it knows more than go, turn left and stop when you're ready. Oh and don't forget the desensitisation process and the desire to do nothing but gallop and run themselves into the ground if they arent the leader horse in the pack. This shows major mental conditioning in a bad way to me.

    As will all who feel the need to advocate something, there are a thousand more who can see the cruelty involved in certain things. Defending the racing industry in my eyes, is speaking to the deaf and while opinions are duly noted, they don't change the reality.
         
        01-06-2008, 07:31 PM
      #20
    Yearling
    Well said jazzyrider.

    I can't belive the abuse some of those racehorses go through. Why do they race 2 and 3 year old anyway? You would think that they would want there bones and joints to be strong enough to last.
         

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