B&W Tobiano... right?
 
 

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B&W Tobiano... right?

This is a discussion on B&W Tobiano... right? within the Horse Colors and Genetics forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category
  • Tobiano frame
  • Tobiano frame horse

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    11-25-2012, 12:31 AM
  #1
Started
B&W Tobiano... right?

I believe my new boy is a black & white tobiano... but I've read a few posts that said if a horse fades he isn't "true black" and he definitely fades.

Is there anything else going on color wise? I'm not familiar with how to tell frame, splash, etc.







Fading:
     
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    11-25-2012, 12:32 AM
  #2
Trained
Yup fading black. As for other white, I would say frame - the way the white spreads on his face above his eyes is a frame screamer to me
     
    11-25-2012, 12:34 AM
  #3
Trained
Just out out of curiosity... can you post pics of him in full winter coat?
Chiilaa likes this.
     
    11-25-2012, 12:41 AM
  #4
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by NdAppy    
Just out out of curiosity... can you post pics of him in full winter coat?
I'll get current pics of him... he should have his full winter coat soon.

Here's a pic the prior owner took of him in the kill pen from this past January:
     
    11-25-2012, 02:49 PM
  #5
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikelodeon79    
I believe my new boy is a black & white tobiano... but I've read a few posts that said if a horse fades he isn't "true black" and he definitely fades.
It's not whether or not a horse fades that tells whether or not it's true black- there are both non-fading and fading black horses (likely due to a gene or combination of genes that has been identified yet) Lots of people think that fading is a sign of homozygous vs heterozygous black horses, but this isn't true either.

The best way to tell a horse's true color is is to see pictures of it in summer and winter, but particularly in its winter coat. This is because some colors & patterns change from season to season. The seasonal variation that is considered one of the indicators of brown is differenrt from the sun fading that horses of any color can display; it largely affects the "soft points" like the muzzle, behind the elbow, at the flank, etc. A sun faded horse is more likely to show fading from the top down- where it gets the most sun exposure.
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    11-25-2012, 08:57 PM
  #6
Foal
Since his face/muzzle is not fading I agrre that he is genetically black. And a Tobiano, doubtless. I don't see signs of frame, his star is big but still a normal marking for solid horses and tobianos.
Lucky fo him that you found him - way too pretty horse for the killer pen!
horsecrazygirl likes this.
     
    11-25-2012, 09:24 PM
  #7
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by caljane    
Since his face/muzzle is not fading I agrre that he is genetically black. And a Tobiano, doubtless. I don't see signs of frame, his star is big but still a normal marking for solid horses and tobianos.
Lucky fo him that you found him - way too pretty horse for the killer pen!
"Normal" face white is still being caused by a white patterning gene. For example, this mare Spice (belongs to Kansas Spice Girl, a forum member), has no other white on her body except for this star. I instantly thought of frame when I saw it, and her owner subsequently had her tested for it. She does indeed have frame. No doubt you can see the similarity between her star and the OP's horse.

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    11-25-2012, 09:35 PM
  #8
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiilaa    
"Normal" face white is still being caused by a white patterning gene. For example, this mare Spice (belongs to Kansas Spice Girl, a forum member), has no other white on her body except for this star. I instantly thought of frame when I saw it, and her owner subsequently had her tested for it. She does indeed have frame. No doubt you can see the similarity between her star and the OP's horse.
*hm* I don't really understand the concept to blame every white marking on a frame gene.
This one was tested - no frame:
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stevenson likes this.
     
    11-25-2012, 09:39 PM
  #9
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by caljane    
*hm* I don't really understand the concept to blame every white marking on a frame gene.
This one was tested - no frame:
I am not saying EVERY face white is frame, but that they are the result of one of the "big four" genes - splash, sabino, frame and tobiano. Obviously, tobiano doesn't cause face white, and frame doesn't cause leg white. However, every white on the horse that is a marking and not scarring has to be caused by one of the white patterning genes, and these four in particular are mostly responsible for this.
     
    11-27-2012, 04:17 PM
  #10
Foal
I suppose I would agree frame for the face, but the body whites trait toward Tobiano because of the chest and flank area being colored and it going over the back/whithers, isn't it rare for frame to have 'ghosting' compared to Tobiano? Just curious.

Also, I'd say she defiantly a black that just fades.
     

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