B&W Tobiano... right? - Page 3
 
 

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B&W Tobiano... right?

This is a discussion on B&W Tobiano... right? within the Horse Colors and Genetics forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category

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        12-03-2012, 11:42 PM
      #21
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by twp    
    APHA.Com - Tobiano Pattern
    I have no idea when it was published.. I know, it has always been on that sight though.. I would also like to say, That horse looks like a dark bay to me. The Mane is dark black, and if it was a fading black, the mane would fade too..
    The APHA definition, while correct in terms of their paper work, is not correct to the genetic definitions that we know now to be correct. Tobiano does not cause face white - it doesn't like white in front of the shoulders. Other white patterns have to be present to cause face white - sabino, splash and frame are all known to cause it.
         
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        12-03-2012, 11:58 PM
      #22
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Chiilaa    
    The APHA definition, while correct in terms of their paper work, is not correct to the genetic definitions that we know now to be correct. Tobiano does not cause face white - it doesn't like white in front of the shoulders. Other white patterns have to be present to cause face white - sabino, splash and frame are all known to cause it.
    Where do I find published that a small white face marking (star etc.) is caused by a pattern gene (sabino/splash/frame). I was always under the impression that a small marking is "just there" - like a freckle - while bigger face markings and high leg markings are, indeed, a sign of a pattern gene. How would you explain that, for excample, Haflingers have a lot of face and leg markings, but I wouldn't know of one that has extensive markings, versus, for example, Clydesdales, where the markings are very obvious caused by a pattern gene since so many white bellied and really high white legs pop up.
    I know that the whole pattern gene stuff is very complex and that there is still a lot to learn - that's why I am asking for a reputable source, no offend meant
         
        12-04-2012, 12:18 AM
      #23
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by caljane    
    Where do I find published that a small white face marking (star etc.) is caused by a pattern gene (sabino/splash/frame). I was always under the impression that a small marking is "just there" - like a freckle - while bigger face markings and high leg markings are, indeed, a sign of a pattern gene. How would you explain that, for excample, Haflingers have a lot of face and leg markings, but I wouldn't know of one that has extensive markings, versus, for example, Clydesdales, where the markings are very obvious caused by a pattern gene since so many white bellied and really high white legs pop up.
    I know that the whole pattern gene stuff is very complex and that there is still a lot to learn - that's why I am asking for a reputable source, no offend meant
    I have tried to look for a published, peer reviewed paper that describes this... Proving difficult. I think that is because it is a simple no-brainer that any white has to be caused by some sort of genetic switch that tells the white to be there - with the exception being scars that grow in white.
         
        12-04-2012, 12:28 AM
      #24
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Chiilaa    
    I have tried to look for a published, peer reviewed paper that describes this... Proving difficult. I think that is because it is a simple no-brainer that any white has to be caused by some sort of genetic switch that tells the white to be there - with the exception being scars that grow in white.
    Chiilaa, this may be a no-brainer to you, but - boy - no reputable source at all? That makes that statement a bit ... an assumption? If somebody has a lot of freckles (dark skin) - does that mean that they have an african american gene? I know, this is very far fetched, but without proof I still tend to have the humble opinion that (small) markings can exist without calling them sabino, overo or splash. But I am all game to learn differently!
    twp likes this.
         
        12-04-2012, 12:31 AM
      #25
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by caljane    
    Chiilaa, this may be a no-brainer to you, but - boy - no reputable source at all? That makes that statement a bit ... an assumption? If somebody has a lot of freckles (dark skin) - does that mean that they have an african american gene? I know, this is very far fetched, but without proof I still tend to have the humble opinion that markings can exist without calling them sabino, overo or splash. But I am all game to learn differently!

    No, but it does mean they have a gene that is telling their skin to freckle in sun. Some people don't freckle, some people do. Even though it is a response to an environmental factor, it is a genetic switch guiding that response.

    Every white marking a horse is born with HAS to be caused by their genetics. There is no other possible explanation - unless you think that they just appeared by magic? Sometimes common sense means you have to make these assumptions, regardless of the evidence. We know they have to be caused by something genetic.
    NdAppy likes this.
         
        12-04-2012, 12:42 AM
      #26
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by caljane    
    Chiilaa, this may be a no-brainer to you, but - boy - no reputable source at all? That makes that statement a bit ... an assumption? If somebody has a lot of freckles (dark skin) - does that mean that they have an african american gene? I know, this is very far fetched, but without proof I still tend to have the humble opinion that (small) markings can exist without calling them sabino, overo or splash. But I am all game to learn differently!
    There are horses that are all solid except for normal leg and face markings (stripes, stars, socks, etc) who have been tested and proven to have pinto genes. There are only a handful of white tests - only one for sabino, of which we know multiple 'strains' (if you will) exist - a few for splash and a fair few for dominant white. Some of these horses don't have any Paint or pinto-colored horses in their bloodlines.
         
        12-04-2012, 12:49 AM
      #27
    Trained
    These horses have "normal" white markings that we know for sure is being caused by a white patterning gene, as they are tested.

    Spice has no other white on her except this white star. She is positive for frame:


    This little lady is showing her "normal" white socks - caused by tobiano, which she is tested for and is homozygous:
         
        12-04-2012, 01:03 AM
      #28
    twp
    Banned
    Why can't that horse have a star, and be a Tobiano?
    PHAA Horse Registration Guidelines
         
        12-04-2012, 01:04 AM
      #29
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by twp    
    Why can't that horse have a star, and be a Tobiano?
    PHAA Horse Registration Guidelines
    Again, registry bodies are notorious for being decades behind current research, so please don't use them as educational tools for genetics.

    No one is saying the horse can't be tobiano, just that there has to be something MORE causing the face white.
         
        12-04-2012, 01:08 AM
      #30
    twp
    Banned
    That horse you posted does have a white marking on her neck, and a little in her mane. Typical of the overo
         

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