B&W Tobiano... right? - Page 5
 
 

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B&W Tobiano... right?

This is a discussion on B&W Tobiano... right? within the Horse Colors and Genetics forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category

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        12-04-2012, 09:30 AM
      #41
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by caljane    
    I own two tobianos - one has sabino in him, I agree (white spots underneath his head). The other one has a small star and stripe - I just refuse to call him a "Tovero" because of that!
    I refuse to call him "tovero" because it's a stupid word that should be outlawed. White patterning genes cause white markings. Be they hugely expressive so that the whole horse is white, all the way down to a spot of white on a heel or head. Some horses have white patterning genes without any white at all.

    I think the distinction here is that you don't care about the white that causes "normal" genes, so you don't care to distinguish it. However, that doesn't mean that those of us that do are wrong.
    NdAppy likes this.
         
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        12-04-2012, 09:36 AM
      #42
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by caljane    
    And no doubt there. But you forget the mention the other side - there are horses with markings that do NOT test positive for any known pattern gene.
    To get really technically: yes, there is probably a gene, probably more than one, that creates markings. But why would you want to call that gene a pattern gene? That is a wording that is used to descrobe painted horses - pinto pattern of all kinds, not a solid horse with a star.
    That is because of a limit in current science, not a limit of knowledge. And there are plenty of areas we could apply this to - there is no test for sooty - does that mean we should stop using that term? Currently, we have tests for many of the white patterning genes, but not all of them. That doesn't mean they don't exist. We CAN test for tobiano, frame, three forms of splash (with at least one more that doesn't have a test yet, looking at the results so far), 5 forms of dominant white (out of 11 identified strains so far), one form of sabino (sabino 1, with at least another form there, maybe more), and roan. There is no test yet for any form of rabicano. Just because we can't test for it, doesn't mean it isn't there.
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        12-04-2012, 09:41 AM
      #43
    Trained
    Don't forget the test for LP now, no test for PATN, but we know that's there as well...
    Chiilaa, xxdanioo and twp like this.
         
        12-04-2012, 10:11 AM
      #44
    Foal
    Chiila: My whole point is - is see here people asking what color their horses are, and for every horse that has a face marking a few members scream "sabino - frame - splash"! Now - just because some people call any marking a color pattern while other people would give a marking the benefit of a doubt and call it only "marking-gene", in the horse world better understood as "solid horse with a marking", why would it make you right and everybody else wrong? Again: there is no reputable source but only your statement. You decide to call a marking by the name of a pattern gene - and you are pretty much the only one I know who is publishing it, in a horse forum (plus a few other members - also without a proven source).

    Now - I guess the only problem I have is that people get really confused here. Of course there are so many genes that can not be tested for (yet) and we try to determine by the phenotype what color/pattern a horse is. But you gotta slow down somewhere and state the obvious. Like this horse here: he is a Tobiano. A very typical example for one. Nothing outstanding about him. He has a head marking. And here it comes - oh my, he could be Splash or Frame - like probably 90% of all other horses in this world, according to your definition. That is like adding to every color determination "and he has white teeth".

    BTW: I find this discussion very interesting, I wished you could convince me

    Maybe we can make a definition for another color gene, call it "the stellar gene" and blame this one for face and leg markings that are not caused by known pattern genes nor show penotype signs of a known pattern gene (for e.g. Arrow tipping in leg markings, extended white markings). You know - as stupid as this sounds that would make me feel more comfortable. Because a marking is just not a pattern, even if the causing gene is related.
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        12-04-2012, 11:03 AM
      #45
    Yearling
    However, I'm fairly certain that any horse I've known to have "normal" markings has tested positive for at least one patterning gene. What would you have to say about tobiano with a star and blue eyes? Tobiano does not cause blue eyes. Go to any reputable genetics site and your find your answer. I firmly agree with Chiilaa and Ndappy, they've done their research and are highly knowledgeable. Also, your use of 'overo' could confuse someone, because overo does not just mean frame, it covers all of the white patterns except tobiano, LP, and PATN.
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        12-04-2012, 11:27 AM
      #46
    Trained
    Also, you can go to quite a few other forums there and there are the same discussions about what is causing white markings and the people there also state what we do here. So it's not just "us" so to speak...
         
        12-04-2012, 11:33 AM
      #47
    Foal
    Okay, its a simple fact that a horse has to be Sabino, Splash, Tobiano, Frame, or some form of Appaloosa to have any white at all. Proven fact. That can't be argued.

    Its simply a matter of people being uninformed or confused that is fueling this argument.
    Here is how I think of a horses color, since I am an artist and have to think of things in a visual way:
    1. I see a blank horse cutout, no color
    2. Then layer on top of that the "Base" coat; so Red (chestnut) or Black.
    3. Then add the modifiers, so Agouti, Cream or Duns...etc.
    4. So now we have a unmarked pony of just their born color.
    5. Then the white is what is layered on last, I imagine a clear sheet, like animators use. I see the color pattern causing the gene on top, so Sabino, Frame Tobi..... you get the idea, and I layer that over top, the white appearing where is is supposed to be by the genetics.
    6. and Done, you have a pretty pony!

    So that is how I visualize, I could be just crazy, but that might help people understand the confusing world of genetics. Lol
    NdAppy, BBBCrone, Ponies and 1 others like this.
         
        12-04-2012, 12:45 PM
      #48
    Trained
    SunnyMeade, that actually made A LOT of sense! Thank you for that analogy!
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        12-04-2012, 07:32 PM
      #49
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by caljane    
    Chiila: My whole point is - is see here people asking what color their horses are, and for every horse that has a face marking a few members scream "sabino - frame - splash"! Now - just because some people call any marking a color pattern while other people would give a marking the benefit of a doubt and call it only "marking-gene", in the horse world better understood as "solid horse with a marking", why would it make you right and everybody else wrong? Again: there is no reputable source but only your statement. You decide to call a marking by the name of a pattern gene - and you are pretty much the only one I know who is publishing it, in a horse forum (plus a few other members - also without a proven source).

    Now - I guess the only problem I have is that people get really confused here. Of course there are so many genes that can not be tested for (yet) and we try to determine by the phenotype what color/pattern a horse is. But you gotta slow down somewhere and state the obvious. Like this horse here: he is a Tobiano. A very typical example for one. Nothing outstanding about him. He has a head marking. And here it comes - oh my, he could be Splash or Frame - like probably 90% of all other horses in this world, according to your definition. That is like adding to every color determination "and he has white teeth".

    BTW: I find this discussion very interesting, I wished you could convince me

    Maybe we can make a definition for another color gene, call it "the stellar gene" and blame this one for face and leg markings that are not caused by known pattern genes nor show penotype signs of a known pattern gene (for e.g. Arrow tipping in leg markings, extended white markings). You know - as stupid as this sounds that would make me feel more comfortable. Because a marking is just not a pattern, even if the causing gene is related.
    So you are happy to "make up" a new name for a gene that is already there and called something else? Seriously?

    Go have a look at threads that I personally have responded to. I never ever say "Oh and he has splash too". I don't usually identify what is present in a horse without telling the OP exactly why I say that. If splash is present, I will say something like "I see splash in the way the blaze is bottom heavy and falling off to the left", never just "he has splash".

    Maybe it's time for you to start educating yourself on how to identify white patterns, since you are so uncomfortable with those of us who are able to do it? Reading posts by myself, Poseidon or NDAppy are a good start, I know all three of us are up to date with current research. Another good place is this website: Horse Color Genetics | Equine Color Genetics Again, I recommend it because the lady that runs it is very current, and she has lots of beautiful images to really show what she is talking about. If you have any other questions, please feel free to pose them.
    NdAppy likes this.
         
        12-04-2012, 07:41 PM
      #50
    twp
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Chiilaa    
    So you are happy to "make up" a new name for a gene that is already there and called something else? Seriously?

    Go have a look at threads that I personally have responded to. I never ever say "Oh and he has splash too". I don't usually identify what is present in a horse without telling the OP exactly why I say that. If splash is present, I will say something like "I see splash in the way the blaze is bottom heavy and falling off to the left", never just "he has splash".

    Maybe it's time for you to start educating yourself on how to identify white patterns, since you are so uncomfortable with those of us who are able to do it? Reading posts by myself, Poseidon or NDAppy are a good start, I know all three of us are up to date with current research. Another good place is this website: Horse Color Genetics | Equine Color Genetics Again, I recommend it because the lady that runs it is very current, and she has lots of beautiful images to really show what she is talking about. If you have any other questions, please feel free to pose them.


    Lol, rawwwwr!! I think, they were only Joking!
    caljane likes this.
         

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