B&W Tobiano... right? - Page 6
 
 

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B&W Tobiano... right?

This is a discussion on B&W Tobiano... right? within the Horse Colors and Genetics forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category

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        12-04-2012, 08:01 PM
      #51
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by twp    
    Tobiano + Overo = Tovero. I agree, Overo horse breeding can be dangerous. The horse in my pic is a Sabino Tovero. Her father was a Tobiano, Dam was a frame Overo, and grand sire was a sabino, and she got the flecking color..
    Tobiano + Overo may have equaled Tovero before. You have to remember, though, that Overo = Frame, Splash, and Sabino.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by twp    
    I don't know how it got a star, but then again, I thought of it as a birthmark.. except on the face.. It's not really genetics, is it? Can I breed a horse for a star?.. If so, I'll try it, but I never seen a person breed for facial markings..
    For a moment, let's just assume that all white is the result of white patterning genes. The reason for not being able to breed for specific markings is then quite simple.

    You can breed for frame, tobiano, sabino, splash. However, you can't breed for a specific pattern (ex. You can't breed for a frame horse that has white on specific parts of its body, random nature will just do what it wants). That would also be the reason why you can't breed for specific small white markings such as stars or fetlocks.

    The reason that horses would come up negative for white pattern genes is that not all strains of them have a test. Such as was mentioned before, there are multiple strains of Splash, Dominant White, and quite possibly Sabino. Sabino only has one test, there are only six identifiable strains of Dominant white out of a known 11+. Science only has yet to catch up to the genes.

    I am fairly certain my TB has Sabino that is causing his star and leg markings. Unfortunately the one test for Sabino might show up negative because there are probably other strains of Sabino besides the one. If and when other tests come out, I'll be testing him for every Sabino gene (and probably all other white-causing genes, if my wallet allows).

    Just food for thought.
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        12-04-2012, 09:50 PM
      #52
    twp
    Banned
    If they know there is 11+ Strans, why can't they Identify them?.. How do they know there are for sure 11+ Strans?
    So, Facial, and leg Markings are caused by splash white?.. That would make sense, I guess.. What if they are as simple as a birthmark, though?.. I never seen a horse with the same markings.. Close, but never a match.
    There is 1 test for sabino, but there are for certain different strans that are unidentified yet?..
         
        12-04-2012, 09:56 PM
      #53
    Foal
    *hm* I didn't know that the rule "who shouts the loudest is right" applies here. How rude to implicate that I would not "educate" myself

    I found your recommended website, Chiilaa, very interesting, even if it did not exactly come to the point discussed here. But I did find something interesting in the description of the Sabino pattern:
    QUOTE: At times, markings as small as a star are blamed on sabino, although in truth, it is difficult or impossible to tell what pattern a very minimal horse carries without testing.

    And again: I do agree that a marking is caused by a gene, but if it can not be tested for (yet), why call it sabino or frame or splash unless other factors (blue eyes, extension of marking) are an indication for it. And I am talking here only about the discussion of the phenotype of a horse. Not the "exception of the rule"-horses that have been tested and shown genetics that the phenotype does not impress (e.g. Tobianos with minimal markings).
    And maybe we are on the same page, just use different words ...
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        12-04-2012, 09:58 PM
      #54
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by twp    
    If they know there is 11+ Strans, why can't they Identify them?.. How do they know there are for sure 11+ Strans?
    So, Facial, and leg Markings are caused by splash white?.. That would make sense, I guess.. What if they are as simple as a birthmark, though?.. I never seen a horse with the same markings.. Close, but never a match.
    There is 1 test for sabino, but there are for certain different strans that are unidentified yet?..
    Go to the link I posted. Read up on it.

    They know there are at least 11 strains because the mutation has appeared in different breeds, and in horses that are completely unrelated.

    Face and leg markings are sometimes caused by splash, I was just using that as an example. They can be caused by any of the "big four" - leg white by tobiano, splash and sabino, face white by frame, splash and sabino.
         
        12-04-2012, 09:58 PM
      #55
    Yearling
    Facial and leg markings are caused by any of the white patterns, not just splash. Even a small star would be caused by one of them. Chiilaa or Ndappy can elaborate on your other questions, since I'm still learning about that part.
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        12-04-2012, 10:01 PM
      #56
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by caljane    
    *hm* I didn't know that the rule "who shouts the loudest is right" applies here. How rude to implicate that I would not "educate" myself

    I found your recommended website, Chiilaa, very interesting, even if it did not exactly come to the point discussed here. But I did find something interesting in the description of the Sabino pattern:
    QUOTE: At times, markings as small as a star are blamed on sabino, although in truth, it is difficult or impossible to tell what pattern a very minimal horse carries without testing.

    And again: I do agree that a marking is caused by a gene, but if it can not be tested for (yet), why call it sabino or frame or splash unless other factors (blue eyes, extension of marking) are an indication for it. And I am talking here only about the discussion of the phenotype of a horse. Not the "exception of the rule"-horses that have been tested and shown genetics that the phenotype does not impress (e.g. Tobianos with minimal markings).
    And maybe we are on the same page, just use different words ...
    I make judgement calls based on the phenotype. I know the different characteristics of the different white patterns. So while it is just a "guess", it is an educated guess. And, for what it's worth, I have been validated several times on this forum by people who have then tested their horse after I have suggested they have various patterns. Spice, for example, was untested when I suggested that she had frame, and her owner tested her based on what I saw in her face marking. As it happened, I was right, she is frame positive.
         
        12-04-2012, 10:24 PM
      #57
    Yearling
    Not everything is known about the way color works, that's for certain.

    As for dominant white, I must have gotten confused with another thing I read. Could have sworn something said 11. It is quite possible that there are other strains of Sabino out there (someone with more knowledge on color please help me here - have there been blatantly obvious Sabino horses that tested negative for the one Sabino test we have?).

    Now, as a completely hypothetical example as I do not know if this has occurred, if a pinto-colored horse was blatantly Sabino no questions asked and tested negative for a current Sabino test, that would mean that there are other mutations of the Sabino gene. Tests for genes are created by discovering one might exist and eventually isolating it. So far one Sabino gene has been isolated, and if there are obvious Sabinos coming back with negative tests, that only mean there are genes that must be searched for and isolated (which is no easy task).

    Any white on the face (star, blaze, stripe) is, in our assuming discussion, caused by Frame, Sabino, or Splash as Tobiano tries to keep white away from the face.

    As for the birthmark theory you have, if you really think about it, what are the odds that so many horses would have these white markings in the same areas if they were just birthmarks? Why wouldn't they have white birthmarks on other areas of their body besides their legs and face? Even if they're not the same exactly, hundreds of thousands of animals having the same kind of birthmarks in the same areas is a little strange. I'm not saying it's impossible, but rather improbable.

    Saying that no two facial/leg markings are exactly the same to make a sort of argument against them being caused by white pattern genes is moot. My reasoning for that being that no two louder pinto colored horses (obviously frame or obviously tobiano) have the same exact markings.

    Take a look at Barbaro compared to my boy Reno.


    Very similar stars. Now, maybe it's just random coincidence that they have near-identical 'birthmarks' or maybe it's a genetic thing. I'm leaning more towards genetically related...maybe only because they share a grandsire, but the similarity is there.

    At this point I have no idea what I'm trying to say as I've been working 15 hour shifts and am exhausted XD
         
        12-04-2012, 10:41 PM
      #58
    Started
    I would like to point out that I specifically asked if there was anything else going on besides the tobiano. Honestly, I would've been disappointed to hear the generic term "tovero" because I was looking for a more in depth answer.

    I may not know much about genetics, but one semester in college was enough to tell me that characteristics don't "just happen." There our a genetic explanation for everything, even if we don't know exactly what that is.

    Thanks to all who responded.
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        12-05-2012, 01:01 AM
      #59
    twp
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Reno Bay    
    Take a look at Barbaro compared to my boy Reno.


    Very similar stars. Now, maybe it's just random coincidence that they have near-identical 'birthmarks' or maybe it's a genetic thing. I'm leaning more towards genetically related...maybe only because they share a grandsire, but the similarity is there.

    Wow, that is so awesome.. close.. very close. I have yet to see two of the same marked horses though.. Even twins are marked separately.. Yours is almost the opposite of the horse pictured above.. Very neat!

    Don't worry, I'll be here tomorrow to pick your brain more, by the way! :) I am intrigued by color genetics. :)
         
        12-05-2012, 01:11 AM
      #60
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by twp    
    Wow, that is so awesome.. close.. very close. I have yet to see two of the same marked horses though.. Even twins are marked separately.. Yours is almost the opposite of the horse pictured above.. Very neat!

    Don't worry, I'll be here tomorrow to pick your brain more, by the way! :) I am intrigued by color genetics. :)
    Regarding positioning of white markings, it is thought that as well as genes turning the white on in certain areas, the foal's position in the womb can have an effect on the way the white expresses too. That became evident when they started cloning horses, check these guys out. They are all clones of one horse.

         

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