Bay or Blue Roan? - Page 4

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Bay or Blue Roan?

This is a discussion on Bay or Blue Roan? within the Horse Colors and Genetics forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category

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    04-23-2011, 08:59 PM
I also agree with brown roan. However, I am not sure that the AQHA recognizes that color so she would likely be registered as a blue roan.

Either way, she's stunning.
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    05-25-2011, 12:59 AM
To me she looks blue roan a little sun bleached though. Ok now , I have much experience with this.I have a beautiful blue roan stallion...or so I thought. After breeding him now for 9 years.
I bred one outside mare who was a summer black. The foal that resulted was a bay roan....bay head , blue body , black legs , mane and tail.

Now, My stallion has thrown many blue babies, bay roans , a few solid bays , jet blacks, duns, buckskins and one palomino. However when the guy sent the papers in on the foal the AQHA said there can be no horse born to that union of that color. So an investigation was launched and I was asked to send in pictures of my stallion. OK, he is a blue roan they said.....BUT a year later they demanded I send HIS papers in so they can change HIS color to bay roan on his papers , but with the markings of a blue roan. Now , you look at this horse he does not have a brown hair on his body! He is black and looks like polished steel. I did an independent genetic testing to find he was in fact Aa on the genetic level. Which would explain why he could throw so many colors. What bugs me is the way AQHA handled it, the horse HIMSELF IS BLUE ROAN. I think keeping HIM registered as a blue roan and adding to the side, Aa or carries the bay gene. But they would not.

No matter, that does not change him for the horse he is nor the foals he puts on the ground. Just an inconvenience ! LOL

I would LOVE to post a picture of him here so you all can see what I am talking about do you do it?
    05-25-2011, 02:07 AM
DarkRider, why would you keep him as a blue roan when he is genetically a bay roan? Is it because it is a 'fancier' colour?

A horse can't 'carry' the bay gene as a black base - bay (Aa) is dominant and displays on black. So he can't 'carry' it, he IS bay.
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    05-25-2011, 02:47 PM
Chiilaa, great question! I paid $10,000 for this horse as a blue roan. OK, the color thing was a bonus he has proven himself as a stallion and is well known in our area. If you SAW the horse you will see what I am talking about. Bottom line....if he were a gelding he would keep his " original papered" color. The rules were changed in the AQHA rule book because of my horse concerning this. Cool huh! Many at the AQHA were shaking their heads too.

I have worked with other breeders on this that said they have NEVER seen a horse HIS color but still BE considered a "bay" roan so to say...OUTWARD he IS a bay roan on a genetic level. Believe me I have been on top of this. Again , as I said above...the color does not change what he puts on the ground nor the horse he is. So it really is not a big deal....BTW that is HIM in my Avatar!
    05-25-2011, 03:47 PM
Here is my Blue Roan mare. Not a brown hair anywhere on her body. She gets a bit more white on her in winter, but that's it. Then it changes back to blue.
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    05-25-2011, 04:01 PM
Might not be the best picture in the world of him but here he is.

    05-25-2011, 04:16 PM
Chiilaa, Here was some research I had done. Perhaps this may be use full to others here concerning black roans and genetics. Very interesting!

    05-25-2011, 04:25 PM
DarkRider, that is to small to read.
    05-25-2011, 04:50 PM
I KNOW! I am getting used to this place! LOL I waited too long and it would not let me fix it! Here it is!

Chiilaa, Here was some research I had done. Perhaps this may be use full to others here concerning black roans and genetics. Very interesting!

Q: AA means no black or blue foals?

A: Correct

Q: aa means he is true blue right?

A: Correct Does that mean then he would be unable to produce bay roan at all even if bred with a bay mare? No, aa horses can produce bay-based colors if the mare they are bred to is either Aa or AA. But if an aa horse is bred to another aa horse (such as 2 blue roans, 2 blacks, a blue roan and black), then the foal can not be bay-based. I think this is what raised the flag with AQHA. They think your stallion is bay based (AA or Aa) because he threw a bay or bay roan foal from a mare that they think is black (aa).

Q: Aa means he can throw both right? Why should the colors be questioned?*****

A: If he is Aa (bay roan or brown roan, but not blue roan) then they should not question whether his foals are bay, bay roan, blue roan, or black unless photos that are sent in with the registration make them think that the foal isn't the color that the owner thinks the foal is. If he is Aa (bay/brown roan), then he can sire blue roan and bay/brown roan from a wide variety of mare colors.

Q: Another question is when researching a horses color history and one is able to see what is in his or her background, is it so far fetched to say some of those colors can surface , or doesn't it matter?

A: Some color genes can skip a generation...recessive genes like red can do this. For example, two black-legged horses bred together can produce a sorrel. And Agouti can surface visually...a sorrel bred to a black can produce a bay if the sorrel was Aa or AA for Agouti. Agouti doesn't show up visually on sorrels, as it only affects black-legged horses.

But dominant genes can not skip a generation. So two black horses can not produce a roan, because the true roan gene is dominant. Cream causes buckskins and palominos, and is dominant. It can't skip a generation. But, many people don't recognize a "smoky black" horse, which is a black that carries cream. So they can be surprised when a smoky black has a buckskin foal.

Dominant genes like Roan, gray, black (E, capital) can not skip a generation. Two sorrels can not have a black. So, it depends upon what gene you are talking about.
Still, he sure looked true blue in the pictures if I am thinking of the correct stallion.

HOME: Grullo ( grulla ) quarter horses and blue roans at Cedar Ridge; reining, cutting, and roping

    05-25-2011, 09:22 PM
The genetics are simple. Because all the genes involved in this case are dominant.

I get what you are saying. Phenotype wise, he is so dark that he has been mistaken as a blue roan all his life. However, phenotype is not the correct way to refer to a horse. Otherwise, all those silver bays would still be called flaxen chestnut.

And I respectfully disagree - his GENETIC colour DOES affect what he puts on the ground. If I were a mare owner that happened to have an EE aa mare that I wanted to breed to your boy, in the hope of getting a black or black roan foal, I would be mislead by him being called a blue roan when he isn't one.

If you hadn't tested him, then I would not disagree. Phenotypically, he does look like a blue roan. But you have had him tested, and still calling him that regardless of the results is not something I would expect.

For once, I agree with the registering body. That kind of scares me :(
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