Bay? Or Brown? - Page 2

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Bay? Or Brown?

This is a discussion on Bay? Or Brown? within the Horse Colors and Genetics forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category
  • Can seal brown foals lighten

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    11-13-2012, 09:29 AM
If the lightening of the muzzle is a seasonal it only happens when he gets a winter coat....I am sticking with Bay.
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    11-13-2012, 09:35 AM
Yes it only happens with his winter coat. And actually this is only his 2nd winter that I've seen, but it did not happen last winter. I wonder why it has happened this year!
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    11-13-2012, 10:41 AM
The lightening of the soft points in winter and seasonal changes is actually a strong indicator that he's actually brown. There are a few horses at the barn I was boarding/working at that I was positive were bay, but now that it's winter, their muzzled lightened and I've changes my opinion to brown lol.
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    11-13-2012, 10:43 AM
Is it just the muzzle, or does he get light in other areas also?
    11-13-2012, 11:18 AM
It is just his muzzle. No sign of the blonde hairs anywhere else. He is still the same old reddish brown everywhere else except for the tips of his ears and all 4 legs which are black.
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    11-13-2012, 01:10 PM
I would say this horse is bay. He has black points. I have what they call a brown horse and my horse is the same color on her entire body. Some think that she is a dark bay, but she is brown. So, my vote is bay.
    11-13-2012, 01:22 PM
That is a strange case... I'd expect the muzzle to lighten every winter on a brown horse. I suspect that only a DNA test will tell you for certain whether or not brown is present; PetDNA is the only company that currently offers a test for brown. If you do decide to test, definitely let us know how it turns out

On a side note, it has been hypothesized that two brown agouti genes lighten a horse more than a single brown agouti gene. Given how light your horse is, it would be interesting to see if this hypothesis is true and he is homozygous for brown (At/At)
    11-13-2012, 03:22 PM
Thanks Verona! I am going to check that website out :) I am thinking I am going to get the DNA test bcause I'm curious. I know his papers say he is Bay but I have heard that doesnt mean anything since AQHA doesnt always distinguish between brown/bay So would brown not be present on a true bay horse? What would I be looking for? I will for sure share the results.

I didnt snap any pictures this morning when I went to feed him but I am going out in a few more hours and hopefully I will be able to grab some really good pictures without the sun messing everything up. He was back to being his normal chocolate color today (which makes me think the redder tone in his body was indeed a trick of the sun).

His muzzle was still blonde but WAY less so. It was fuzzier and most of the fuzz was brown, covering up the blonde hairs. Is that normal? Is it a sign of anything I should be worried about? Like I said, the blonde muzzle didnt happen last year .. but he never really got much of a winter coat which I assumed was because he was so underfed, etc.

Checked all over for more blonde hairs again this morning and nothing. His black points are darker because of the new hair growth and the fact he is in a stall so they can't get faded, but they are still black. He is getting more black hair on his ears though. It is starting to cover up the entire ear instead of just the tip
    11-13-2012, 03:32 PM
Sorry for the double post, but this is PETDNA's list of tests.

Which test would I order, Verona?

➡Recessive Non-Agouti (‘a’) [$25 per animal]
➡Seal Brown (‘At’) [$40 per animal]
➡Comprehensive Agouti = ‘a’ plus ‘At’ combined [$60 per animal]
    11-13-2012, 04:30 PM
Depends on whether you're willing to risk losing $5

If you do just the Seal Brown 'At' test, it will tell if there are 0, 1, or 2 copies of At present. If the result is 0 or 2, you have a clear result. 0 would mean your horse is definitely not brown, and 2 would mean your horse is definitely brown. When you have only 1 copy present, that's when the test for recessive non-agouti 'a' comes in.

Brown 'At' is recessive to classic bay 'A', so if you have a horse with only one 'At' gene, and the other gene is 'A' your horse is At/A, and visually a classic bay. However, if the other gene is the recessive 'a' then your horse is At/a and is brown. (Technically there's a possibility that the other gene is wild bay, 'A+', but there's no genetic test for that right now and it is assumed to be quite rare).

So, if you do the Seal Brown test first for $40, and it comes back with a result of 0 or 2 'At' genes present, the mystery is solved, you know what your horse is, and you have saved $20-25. However, you can still get the more ambiguous result of 1, and you'd have to send in another sample and request the Recessive Non-Agouti test for $25. There's only a $5 difference in price between ordering the tests separately versus ordering them together, so it really boils down to how lucky you feel

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