Breeding a homozygous black/white to a homozygous red/dun? - Page 2
   

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Breeding a homozygous black/white to a homozygous red/dun?

This is a discussion on Breeding a homozygous black/white to a homozygous red/dun? within the Horse Colors and Genetics forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category
  • What will you get with a bay and a homozygous black stud
  • Homozygous tobiano bred to red dun

 
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    03-02-2011, 01:27 PM
  #11
Trained
APHA - you said she has tested homozygous for black and tobiano. Did you have her tested for agouti (bay) as well? Her pictures in your "barn" are making my suspect the possibility of brown.
     
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    03-02-2011, 01:28 PM
  #12
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunedee    
^How is it expressed? Or do you just have to test for it?

So the OP's mare (homozygous for tobiano and black) bred to a stud that's homozgyous for dun you'd have to get a grullo tobiano right? Grullo is dun expressed on black, right? Thanks!!

Sorry for hyjacking the thread!!
Yes, although a bay dun tobiano is also possible. Being homozygous for black simply means the horse can never produce/sire a chestnut. However, the chestnut dun sire could be carrying agouti which could then pass to the foal and produce a bay dun tobiano. The only way to guarantee a black or grullo foal would be to have both horses homozygous for black and also homozygous for dun in the case of a guaranteed grullo, or else ensure that the chestnut dun sire was not carrying agouti.

Clear as mud right?

EDIT - NDAppy rasied a good point, about a homozygous black horse not necessarily being black. A bay horse can be homozygous for black.
     
    03-02-2011, 01:32 PM
  #13
Green Broke
Not too sure but I know a lady down the road that bred Paints and she had a gorgous stud who was the same as your mare, Homozygous for b&w as well as Tobiano & she also had a homozygous red dun mare (beautiful QH) and every time they were bred together, which I believe was a total of 3 times before the mare was sold it resulted in a solid red dun just like the mom.
Only difference is that the foals had socks & some facial markigns while the dam was completely solid.
     
    03-02-2011, 01:34 PM
  #14
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilruffian    
Not too sure but I know a lady down the road that bred Paints and she had a gorgous stud who was the same as your mare, Homozygous for b&w as well as Tobiano & she also had a homozygous red dun mare (beautiful QH) and every time they were bred together, which I believe was a total of 3 times before the mare was sold it resulted in a solid red dun just like the mom.
Only difference is that the foals had socks & some facial markigns while the dam was completely solid.
That's actually impossible. If the sire was homozygous for black, it's impossible to have a red based foal result from the mating.
     
    03-02-2011, 01:36 PM
  #15
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilruffian    
Not too sure but I know a lady down the road that bred Paints and she had a gorgous stud who was the same as your mare, Homozygous for b&w as well as Tobiano & she also had a homozygous red dun mare (beautiful QH) and every time they were bred together, which I believe was a total of 3 times before the mare was sold it resulted in a solid red dun just like the mom.
Only difference is that the foals had socks & some facial markigns while the dam was completely solid.
If the sire was actually the sire and is truly homozygous black and homozygous tobiano... A red foal is not possible. A minimal tobiano is possible (i.e. Little white).
     
    03-02-2011, 01:50 PM
  #16
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacabreMikolaj    
Yes, although a bay dun tobiano is also possible. Being homozygous for black simply means the horse can never produce/sire a chestnut. However, the chestnut dun sire could be carrying agouti which could then pass to the foal and produce a bay dun tobiano. The only way to guarantee a black or grullo foal would be to have both horses homozygous for black and also homozygous for dun in the case of a guaranteed grullo, or else ensure that the chestnut dun sire was not carrying agouti.

Clear as mud right?

EDIT - NDAppy rasied a good point, about a homozygous black horse not necessarily being black. A bay horse can be homozygous for black.

Thanks!! I didn't know that a bay could be homozygous for black! Is there such a thing as homozygous for agouti? I really enjoy learning about this stuff but there's sooo much, lol. Thanks again.
     
    03-02-2011, 02:07 PM
  #17
Trained
Yes there is a thing as homozygous agouti. There are actually three agoutis. A (bay), At (brown), and A+ (wild bay).
     
    03-02-2011, 02:12 PM
  #18
Foal
How are the different agoutis inherited? My youngest is a wild bay. Dam is flaxen sorrel and sire is a bay dun. I think his sire must be homozygous for some sort of agouti because all of his foals are either black, bay, grulla or dun. Or will agouti on black give you a bay I guess? I'm confused ... lol.
     
    03-02-2011, 02:14 PM
  #19
Green Broke
Well, you have to consider that a "bay" is just a black horse with the agouti gene. Genetically, it's still a black horse, same as any other black horse. It just adding a modifying gene that alters the state of it's color. Sort of like a grey horse - grey itself is not a color, it's just a modifier, that grey horse is still genetically a different color underneath.

It's definitely fascinating, I love equine color and what we know about. The more you learn about genetics, the more you'll actually look at equine color being layered like an onion. It's like, if I think about a perlino, I can actually visualize the black horse standing in a field, and then being painted with "agouti" to become a bay, and then being painted with a cream gene to become a buckskin and then being painted with another cream gene to become a perlino!
     
    03-02-2011, 02:16 PM
  #20
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunedee    
How are the different agoutis inherited? My youngest is a wild bay. Dam is flaxen sorrel and sire is a bay dun. I think his sire must be homozygous for some sort of agouti because all of his foals are either black, bay, grulla or dun. Or will agouti on black give you a bay I guess? I'm confused ... lol.
Yep, if he's sired a black foal, then it could be likely he's homozygous for black but not agouti. He'd have to sire ONLY browns, bays or wild bays to be homozygous for agouti. However, if he's homozygous for agouti, but not black, he could also sire chestnut foals that will carry agouti (chestnuts cannot display agouti physically, but they can carry it).
     

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