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brown or smoky black or?

This is a discussion on brown or smoky black or? within the Horse Colors and Genetics forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category

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        02-10-2013, 03:21 AM
      #11
    Started
    Probably his worst picture ever but this is my grey horse. But if he was lost, I'd feel calling him black would be more effective to the general public.
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        02-10-2013, 10:01 AM
      #12
    Started
    Definitely black! He could be smokey black but you would have to test him. Cute horse
         
        02-10-2013, 01:08 PM
      #13
    Cat
    Green Broke
    Thanks everyone for the feedback. I was just curious because it seems his muzzle, underbelly soft spots and under his tail are the faded areas rather than the back and such you would expect with normal fading.

    I was looking at his paperwork and it seems for his one coggins he must have been really faded because he was listed as bay! All other markings were perfectly correct on the paperwork. And last spring at the adoption he looked like more like a dark liver chestnut.

    I need to find a good picture of his eyes. They look more like a dark amber than the brown you typically see.
         
        02-10-2013, 01:58 PM
      #14
    Green Broke
    My Mustang has amber eyes like your guy. And he is chestnut.

    Based on that and the photos you posted I would call him liver chestnut.

    Are his mane and trail true black? Because in the photos, they don't look really black like I would expect to see on a black horse.

    Heck, I don't know. He could be a fading black. But I wouldn't be surprised at all if he was chestnut based. But what do I know.

    I have a mare (who is a gray) who is black based and her eyes are VERY dark. And her gray son (bay based) also has very dark eyes. But I don't know if black horses HAVE to have dark brown eyes.

    But my chestnut Mustang sure has the amber eyes. Here is a photo (best I could find) showing his eye color.
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        02-10-2013, 07:33 PM
      #15
    Trained
    Definitely fading black IMO. If he were red based, I would definitely expect at least a paler coronet band, but he is dark to the hoof. As far as the fading in the soft points, they don't seem hugely lighter to me. As well as that, I would expect far more change from season to season if he were brown, but he is fairly consistent in colour from what I can see.
         
        02-10-2013, 07:40 PM
      #16
    Trained
    What is the genetics of brown?
         
        02-10-2013, 07:53 PM
      #17
    Showing
    Cat, I'd just call him beautiful .
    Cat likes this.
         
        02-10-2013, 08:30 PM
      #18
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Celeste    
    What is the genetics of brown?
    Brown is a mutation of the agouti locus, related to but different from bay. It restricts black differently, in that it actively tries to keep black off the "soft" points of the horse first and foremost, namely the muzzle, eye, elbow, flank, and under the tail. A brown horse can be very light, enough to mimic bay, or dark enough to be close to black.

    Genetics wise, brown is notated as an "At" on the agouti locus. It is thought to be recessive to classic bay, but the order of dominance is not really well understood as some bay horses have produced brown foals, while some brown horses have produced bays. As it is a form of agouti, the horse must be black based, as it will not express on a red based horse.
         
        02-10-2013, 08:41 PM
      #19
    Cat
    Green Broke
    Chiilaa - can a real black have light under the tail as well?
         
        02-10-2013, 08:47 PM
      #20
    Trained
    So a genetics test that can determine the difference in bay and brown is available? Right? Years ago, we called them dark bay. Same horse.
         

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