concerned... please help - Page 4
 
 

       The Horse Forum > Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics > Horse Colors and Genetics

concerned... please help

This is a discussion on concerned... please help within the Horse Colors and Genetics forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category
  • Torvero horses

Like Tree17Likes

 
LinkBack Thread Tools
    01-06-2013, 01:26 AM
  #31
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peppy Barrel Racing    
I would say that mare definitely is a frame carrier. The large blaze that goes off over the eye which appears to be blue. You can tell your cousin she would be breeding frame to frame again! You can also tell that tobiano patterns don't add face white only overo patterns do frame splash and sabino. You can tell your cousin her mare is tobiano with frame! Not only that but frame doesn't always show up on the horse's coat frame can be carried on a solid horse. And why is she breeding a stud that should be gelded that's bad enough. A mutt stud that hasn't done anything to prove itself and has no registration to pass to its progeny. Your cousin needs a lot of education in horses and breeding. She is contributing the continuance of driving the horse market down with poor breeding choices. I hope you show the forum responses to your cousin. Here's some reading materials. I mean theres not only frame being passed on but who knows what diseases that could possibly be inherited. Please tell her she has a 25% chance of having another lethal white foal I hope she makes the right decision. Also a good mannered stud is NOT a reason to breed! A responsible breeding program is to make and improvement on the breed.

Mountain Music: On the wings of an Angel

Lethal white syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Can you explain the whole white face thing, and what are the frame indicators. She showed me a pic of a homozygous tobiano with a full white face. What does that indicate? I feel so lost right now lol
Posted via Mobile Device
     
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
    01-06-2013, 01:27 AM
  #32
Yearling
She doesn't believe me about her horse having frame and I have no idea how to explain it to her since I don't understand it myself...
Posted via Mobile Device
     
    01-06-2013, 01:29 AM
  #33
Started
Ok genetics lesson time let me get on my computer I'm sure Chiilaa can help with this as well she knows more than me.
Posted via Mobile Device
     
    01-06-2013, 01:34 AM
  #34
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peppy Barrel Racing    
Ok genetics lesson time let me get on my computer
Posted via Mobile Device
Yay I need a lesson LoL thanks for taking this time to educate me!!
Posted via Mobile Device
     
    01-06-2013, 01:46 AM
  #35
Trained
Here's a link to a thread I started after I bought my mare, Honey Boo Boo. She is a Frame Overo and as I found out, so is the stallion she was bred to.


Looking for Info on a Stallion
     
    01-06-2013, 02:18 AM
  #36
Started
So I'm going to tell you everything that I've studied myself and also learned from the awesome people on horse forum such as Chiilaa, Posiedon, and NdAppy among others. I have a biology degree so I have a pretty decent foundation in genetics so I LOVE learning about this stuff and I get taught more and more all the time!
Ok so your have to understand there are multitude of genes present in horses or people or any living thing both homozygous, heterozygous, dominant, and recessive. That tobiano horse that is homozygous for that color means that its offspring will without a doubt get one copy of that gene. But you have to look at what other color genes are present a bald apron face I'm assuming this horse has is frame. The APHA would classify this as Torvero which is a confusing term that shouldn't be used. Torvero means tobiano and some other Overo pattern. Like I said earlier tobiano doesn't make any face white markings which means that it has to have the overo white markings which are Frame, Sabino, and Splash. Frame and Splash are also the only two genes that make blue eyes except for in double diluted horses but that doesn't apply here. Now I'm assuming your guys know what homozygous and heterozygous mean. So a horse that is a frame carrier is heterozygous and when its bred to another frame carrier you get these possible progeny possibilities. 25% no frame inherited, 50% frame inherited (heterozygous), 25% LETHAL (homozygous). You can get these results with a punnett square but I won't go into that.
So punnett squares when trying to map out possible inherited genes can get pretty complicated when you start adding in multiple dominant and recessive genes. I'm going to over simplify this a lot but its gets my point across. But basically you have to think about of those progeny that inherited the frame. Lets say the foal inherits frame from one parent and a solid body non white gene from the other. If the solid color is recessive and frame is dominant the frame will show up on the coat and mask the solid color gene. But it can be the other way around if the solid color is dominant over frame then the frame doesn't show on the coat. But regardless in either case where it shows or not the horse still carries frame.

So to save myself some time I'm just going to copy the frame definition from wikipedia which basically says what I said and thensome and here it is.
The frame overo pattern is the most common of the three types of overo patterns recognized in the American Paint Horse breed.[1] A frame overo horse appears to be any solid base color (bay, black, chestnut, etc.) with white irregular patches added, usually with a horizontal orientation. Markings are often of jagged shape rather than rounded, the white rarely crosses the back, the lower legs tend to be dark, and the tail is one color, usually dark. The head is often white or bald-faced, and blue eyes are not uncommon. The frame overo pattern usually behaves like a dominant gene, in that when frame overo horses are crossed on nonspotted horses, about half of the foals come out spotted.[2] There are records of frame overos being produced by two nonspotted parents. There is a theory, however, that these "solid" horses simply may be horses with very minimal expression of overo genetics.[2]
Frame coloring is controversial because it is associated with lethal white syndrome (OLWS or LWS),[4] the equine version of Hirschprung disease.[5] LWS occurs when a foal is homozygous for the Ile118Lys EDNRB mutation, which is considered by many researchers to be "usually responsible" for the frame overo phenotype.[6] However, other researchers emphasize that overo spotting patterns are phenotypically and genetically heterogeneous, that is, may have multiple sources.[7]
The frame overo gene can be masked by other white patterns, particularly tobiano, which is a dominant gene and epistatic to overo.[5] Epistatic means that when both genes are present, this is the one expressed.
In addition, some carriers of the LWS allele appear to be solid. One theory holds that such horses carry the frame gene, but so minimal in expression that they appear solid.[2] Either way, all LWS foals have horses with frame overo patterning in their pedigrees, and horses carrying a frame allele may not necessarily have a visible expression of the frame overo color.[4]

The reason I said that mare is most like frame is the irregular shaped blaze that mare has and how the white reaches towards the eye especially on the side with the blue eye. It's very reminiscent of my friends mare who just had an OWLS foal because like your cousin she was horribly misinformed about frame. My friend AQHA mare has no white except for a small white spot on her side and her irregular shaped blaze. Frame is not restricted to paints its in several breeds.
Here is my friends mare.
     
    01-06-2013, 02:37 AM
  #37
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peppy Barrel Racing    
So I'm going to tell you everything that I've studied myself and also learned from the awesome people on horse forum such as Chiilaa, Posiedon, and NdAppy among others. I have a biology degree so I have a pretty decent foundation in genetics so I LOVE learning about this stuff and I get taught more and more all the time!
Ok so your have to understand there are multitude of genes present in horses or people or any living thing both homozygous, heterozygous, dominant, and recessive. That tobiano horse that is homozygous for that color means that its offspring will without a doubt get one copy of that gene. But you have to look at what other color genes are present a bald apron face I'm assuming this horse has is frame. The APHA would classify this as Torvero which is a confusing term that shouldn't be used. Torvero means tobiano and some other Overo pattern. Like I said earlier tobiano doesn't make any face white markings which means that it has to have the overo white markings which are Frame, Sabino, and Splash. Frame and Splash are also the only two genes that make blue eyes except for in double diluted horses but that doesn't apply here. Now I'm assuming your guys know what homozygous and heterozygous mean. So a horse that is a frame carrier is heterozygous and when its bred to another frame carrier you get these possible progeny possibilities. 25% no frame inherited, 50% frame inherited (heterozygous), 25% LETHAL (homozygous). You can get these results with a punnett square but I won't go into that.
So punnett squares when trying to map out possible inherited genes can get pretty complicated when you start adding in multiple dominant and recessive genes. I'm going to over simplify this a lot but its gets my point across. But basically you have to think about of those progeny that inherited the frame. Lets say the foal inherits frame from one parent and a solid body non white gene from the other. If the solid color is recessive and frame is dominant the frame will show up on the coat and mask the solid color gene. But it can be the other way around if the solid color is dominant over frame then the frame doesn't show on the coat. But regardless in either case where it shows or not the horse still carries frame.

So to save myself some time I'm just going to copy the frame definition from wikipedia which basically says what I said and thensome and here it is.
The frame overo pattern is the most common of the three types of overo patterns recognized in the American Paint Horse breed.[1] A frame overo horse appears to be any solid base color (bay, black, chestnut, etc.) with white irregular patches added, usually with a horizontal orientation. Markings are often of jagged shape rather than rounded, the white rarely crosses the back, the lower legs tend to be dark, and the tail is one color, usually dark. The head is often white or bald-faced, and blue eyes are not uncommon. The frame overo pattern usually behaves like a dominant gene, in that when frame overo horses are crossed on nonspotted horses, about half of the foals come out spotted.[2] There are records of frame overos being produced by two nonspotted parents. There is a theory, however, that these "solid" horses simply may be horses with very minimal expression of overo genetics.[2]
Frame coloring is controversial because it is associated with lethal white syndrome (OLWS or LWS),[4] the equine version of Hirschprung disease.[5] LWS occurs when a foal is homozygous for the Ile118Lys EDNRB mutation, which is considered by many researchers to be "usually responsible" for the frame overo phenotype.[6] However, other researchers emphasize that overo spotting patterns are phenotypically and genetically heterogeneous, that is, may have multiple sources.[7]
The frame overo gene can be masked by other white patterns, particularly tobiano, which is a dominant gene and epistatic to overo.[5] Epistatic means that when both genes are present, this is the one expressed.
In addition, some carriers of the LWS allele appear to be solid. One theory holds that such horses carry the frame gene, but so minimal in expression that they appear solid.[2] Either way, all LWS foals have horses with frame overo patterning in their pedigrees, and horses carrying a frame allele may not necessarily have a visible expression of the frame overo color.[4]

The reason I said that mare is most like frame is the irregular shaped blaze that mare has and how the white reaches towards the eye especially on the side with the blue eye. It's very reminiscent of my friends mare who just had an OWLS foal because like your cousin she was horribly misinformed about frame. My friend AQHA mare has no white except for a small white spot on her side and her irregular shaped blaze. Frame is not restricted to paints its in several breeds.
Here is my friends mare.
I have experience in genetics with cattle. I am a double major animal science/education with an emphasis on beef production. I've used the punnett square and am familiar with the terms as well. This helped a bunch! Thanks! I'm going to send it to my cousin. You have been amazing at helping me and I appreciate the time you've taken to educate me. I love learning about things like this too and often lurk in the background of topics like this just to try to learn more. Thanks again!!
Posted via Mobile Device
     
    01-06-2013, 02:42 AM
  #38
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by countrylove    
I have experience in genetics with cattle. I am a double major animal science/education with an emphasis on beef production. I've used the punnett square and am familiar with the terms as well. This helped a bunch! Thanks! I'm going to send it to my cousin. You have been amazing at helping me and I appreciate the time you've taken to educate me. I love learning about things like this too and often lurk in the background of topics like this just to try to learn more. Thanks again!!
Posted via Mobile Device
Oh good you can really help teach your cousin then and since you understand punnett squares and genetics that makes what I said even clearer . I'm glad I could help both you and your cousin!
     
    01-06-2013, 02:58 AM
  #39
Yearling
It was very helpful! Thank you! Going to talk to her in the morning about it. So far she is not breeding thank god. She changed her mind on her own because she is getting annoyed with dealing with the studdy behavior now that there is a female in the paddock/stall next to him. She wants to geld him. Im glad she came to the conclusion on her own but Im still going to educate her on all of this because one day she wants to try her hand at breeding. She is taking some equine college courses so hopefully that will help her too.
Posted via Mobile Device
     
    01-06-2013, 12:45 PM
  #40
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by countrylove    
It was very helpful! Thank you! Going to talk to her in the morning about it. So far she is not breeding thank god. She changed her mind on her own because she is getting annoyed with dealing with the studdy behavior now that there is a female in the paddock/stall next to him. She wants to geld him. Im glad she came to the conclusion on her own but Im still going to educate her on all of this because one day she wants to try her hand at breeding. She is taking some equine college courses so hopefully that will help her too.
Posted via Mobile Device
The first thing she needs to learn, before even thinking about becoming a breeder, is all the genetic lethals of her chosen breed and their devastating consequences when irresponsibly paired. And to open her mind to suggestions from other people, you never know when someone is going to drop a real gem of wisdom on you. Frequently it's not something you need to keep, but if you don't develop the art of listening, you'll never know will you?
     

Quick Reply
Please help keep the Horse Forum enjoyable by reporting rude posts.
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

Already have a Horse Forum account?
Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

New to the Horse Forum?
Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.


Old Thread Warning
This thread is more than 90 days old. When a thread is this old, it is often better to start a new thread rather than post to it. However, If you feel you have something of value to add to this particular thread, you can do so by checking the box below before submitting your post.

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
See Anything To Be Concerned About Here? countryryder Horse Conformation Critique 9 10-25-2012 05:59 PM
Something to be Concerned About?? ilyTango Horse Health 2 08-10-2010 10:45 AM
Should I be concerned?? gratifite Horse Health 9 08-03-2010 11:12 AM
Would you be concerned? Ktibb Horse Training 26 04-08-2010 11:42 AM



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0