Cream + Pearl or Champagne?

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Cream + Pearl or Champagne?

This is a discussion on Cream + Pearl or Champagne? within the Horse Colors and Genetics forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category

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    04-23-2012, 05:38 PM
Cream + Pearl or Champagne?

I bought my horse Garzo a few weeks ago, and have been reading up a little on the color genetics that result in a cremello horse (which he is supposed to be).

I was a little surprised when I noticed that he has some freckling/mottling on his skin, which doesn't seem to be consistent with being a double cream. It's most obvious in his dock area, but he also has it on his sheath, around his eyes and very faintly on his muzzle.

He also has one blue eye and one pale green eye, but everything I've read indicates that cremellos are "all" supposed to have blue eyes.

He definitely has a cream gene from his sire (Saphiro) but I'm unsure of his dam and am thinking he got either pearl or champagne from her. I bought him from the breeder, so I'm waiting to hear back from him if he still has some pictures of her that he wouldn't mind sending me. Her name is King Pearly, which would imply the pearl gene, but it would also imply that she's male, so who knows

Here are some pictures of the freckled areas- what do you think? Double cream? Cream w/ pearl? Cream w/ champagne? Something else?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Right Eye.jpg (61.1 KB, 221 views)
File Type: jpg Left Eye.jpg (52.2 KB, 216 views)
File Type: jpg dock.jpg (50.6 KB, 220 views)
File Type: jpg muzzle.jpg (57.0 KB, 211 views)
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    04-23-2012, 06:13 PM
Possibly. Do you have any pictures or pedigree of her dam?

I'm half asleep honestly, so I will come back later when I have some kind of thought process other than directing you to UC Davis (Horse Tests) as they have genetic tests for both Pearl and Champagne. Each is $25.
    04-23-2012, 06:21 PM
Here is the dam's pedigree: King Pearly Quarter Horse

I'm working on getting photos, but the breeder can be a little slow with e-mail. If he does have photos of her, it might take him a week or two to get them scanned and e-mailed to me.
    04-23-2012, 06:42 PM
My thoughts with it currently: Pearl exists in Andalusians, but I'm assuming it's quite uncommon, if not rare and I don't know enough about Andalusians to know what bloodlines it exists in. So there is the possibility he could have received the pearl gene from his sire.

However, his dam is a palomino, or so allbreed says. Gold champagnes are commonly mistaken for palomino, but she may also be a palomino pearl, although I only know that pearl is associated with the Barlink Macho Man line, which I don't se e in her pedigree, unless I missed it.
    04-23-2012, 07:20 PM
The UC Davis site says that if a horse has 2 copies of the pearl gene that they eyes will be a light brown color but if one copy of the pearl gene, eyes will be a blue/green color. Not sure that they mean one eye blue and the other green but that's what it says. Also says that with one copy of the pearl gene the horse will have a very diluted color similar to the double dilutes such as a cremello....which leads me to think he probably has at least one pearl gene.

I think I remember reading somewhere that Saphiro had sired another foal that was tested and positive for carrying the pearl gene so I bet he carries it.
    04-23-2012, 07:37 PM
Pearl is strange. One copy of the gene alone will not change the color of a black, bay, or chestnut horse. However, two copies will produce colors similar to a single cream dilute or a champagne color (kind of the same way cream does not change black, but two cream genes will change it entirely). Furthermore, pearl will suddenly become evident if a horse carries pearl and cream and be double diluted. For instance, a buckskin pearl will appear to be an almost perlino color.

ETA: Wyndella, by "blue/green eyes", they mean just that: eyes that are a bluish-green color. Not one green, one blue.
    04-23-2012, 07:49 PM
I am not an expert, but I don't think champagne. They eyes don't look right to me. Here is a close up of a yearling amber champagne I used to have.

    04-23-2012, 07:50 PM
Champagnes usually have amber eyes, not green/blue.
    04-23-2012, 08:37 PM
Originally Posted by WyndellaRose    
I think I remember reading somewhere that Saphiro had sired another foal that was tested and positive for carrying the pearl gene so I bet he carries it.
It's possible that Saphiro carries it, but from a quick Google search, I think it's unlikely. The only cream-pearl offspring of his I could find a reference to seemed to have inherited the pearl from his dam (who foaled another cream-pearl from a different double cream sire) He seems to be a pretty prolific sire, so I'd think more of his foals would show it (assuming pearl has a 50/50 chance of being passed on)

I didn't realize the pearl gene was quite so rare... Does anyone know of any QH lines that are known to carry pearl besides Barlink?

Is champagne more common? Anyone know what it does to eye color when mixed with cream? He certainly doesn't have the amber eyes of a non-cream champagne.
    04-23-2012, 08:48 PM
This page about cream-champagne mixture indicates that the combination can have green eyes, though they often remain blue.

It also says that can develop light freckles as they age. Garzo isn't all that old (8 next month) but it doesn't say when the freckling would start.

If it weren't for the green eye, I'd think maybe is actually a double cream that is developing some freckling.

ETA: Here's the link... I guess it would help if I included it

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