Dilute Draft Stallions in UK? - Page 11 - The Horse Forum
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post #101 of 134 Old 02-04-2013, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Freyannia View Post
I see I am going to continue to be referred to as "she" and "this person" then.
This is quite common throughout the whole forum, as with all of the posters, it can be hard to remember who the OP was. It is not meant in a bad way, just the simplest way to address you.
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post #102 of 134 Old 02-04-2013, 11:41 AM
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Thing is you seem to be going about restoreing this "breed" the entirely wrong way. You cant breed a swallow and an osterich and expect to get a dodo out of it.

The best way to recreate the breed is to go back to the origins of the breed and find out what the cross there was. Then recreate that cross, introduce the blood that was introduced in the original lines. So if the original was a percheron x appy then you breed a percheron to an appy. If 4 generations later they introduced some TB blood then you introduce some TB blood.

You dont just go out and breed 2 totaly non related (related to the breed that is) horses to try and get something that looks similar. I can breed a shire to a percheron, it may give me something that looks like a clyde but it isnt a clyde!
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post #103 of 134 Old 02-04-2013, 11:43 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by faye View Post
actualy my original question was entirely to do with the thread as there are probably hundreds of draft stallions out there each with thier own attributes and breed standards.

Asking for a double dilute stallion with no other qualities screams colour breeder (colour breeders being those who couldnt give a **** what the horses conformation or preformance ability is provided it is a pretty colour). I will not help colour breeders.

On the other hand had the OP come on here and said something like:

I would like to breed a nice draft cross, I have this mare XXX, she has these bad points XXXX, I would like to improve XXX with an aim to doing XXX so am looking for a stallion with a good shoulder/hip/stifle/length of back etc. Oh and it would be an added bonus if it was a double dilute.
then she would have gotten a far better response.

I'm all for carefully concidered breedings that improve on what you have, breeding a poorly conformed useless horse because it is a pretty colour is NOT improving anything other than the meatmans bottom line!
So by saying I was involved in Sugarbush drafts was a red rag to a bull was it? Are you seriously saying that you were rude to me because Of the way I worded the question? I think not, I think you would have told me I was breeding a mutt either way. You don't have to help colour breeders but you don't need to be rude. Manners cost nothing.

Also... Who says I am breeding for colour. There seems to be a common misconception that the Sugarbush MUST be spotty. This is not true. As I have said again and again it is the horse underneath and colour is a bonus.

I wanted a big draft who will be assessed for his conformation and movement before deciding if he matches my filly because it will be her first foal and is likely to be small. I fancied seeing if I could find I dilute or double dilute because I like the colour and my girl is dilute herself, but even if their is one available it doesn't mean it would match up well to my girl.

I can't believe you are justifying being rude because you assumed I was breeding for colour rather than just asking me.

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post #104 of 134 Old 02-04-2013, 11:46 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by faye View Post
Thing is you seem to be going about restoreing this "breed" the entirely wrong way. You cant breed a swallow and an osterich and expect to get a dodo out of it.

The best way to recreate the breed is to go back to the origins of the breed and find out what the cross there was. Then recreate that cross, introduce the blood that was introduced in the original lines. So if the original was a percheron x appy then you breed a percheron to an appy. If 4 generations later they introduced some TB blood then you introduce some TB blood.

You dont just go out and breed 2 totaly non related (related to the breed that is) horses to try and get something that looks similar. I can breed a shire to a percheron, it may give me something that looks like a clyde but it isnt a clyde!
I have explained how I will integrate the original blood into these horses once they are the correct type at least 3 times, I don't think I need to again.

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post #105 of 134 Old 02-04-2013, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Freyannia View Post
The problem is that certain people are Not taking part in a discussion, they are making Rude remarks and stating what they think are facts and not discussing anything.

Actually, i never gave a reason why i was looking for a dilute stallion, I explained why i would prefer a draft as my filly needs to be covered by a full draft (which would be assessed for suitability before any decision was made) in order to be eligable to have the foal count as a G1, working towards the ideal type before I can start to try and get horses breeding true.

I will deal with a pure blood stallion later but there isn't much point if my stock isn't the correct type yet.

To clarify, I was asked what I wanted to breed and was immediately told I was breeding a mutt. This is not the opening for a discussion but a rude remark that was un necessary and uncalled for And several others followed.

To be honest I have commented on the rude comments already, I do feel like a target, I do feel like people are forcing their opinions forward and won't accept that others have different opinions and I also feel like people are deliberately ignoring comments so they can continue to nit pick.

Is this how a friendly forum operates? I think not.

This is my 3rd day on this forum and I must say it hasn't given me the best impression.
Its impossible to offer suggestions for a stallion without knowing what a person is aiming to breed. There has to be more information to give an answer.
You then stated you were wanting to breed a Sugarbush Draft. Maybe 'mutt' was a harsh word to use but it is what it implies - a mixed breed horse of no definite or predictable type as the progeny can go in so many directions. You may get a really nice horse but chances are you might not.
I think you will find that all of the replies you disliked are made by people who are concerned about the high numbers of horses being bred with no market for them - other than the slaughter trade which is a lot bigger than you want to believe it is.
I repeat my last post - if you want to produce a spotted draft horse then take a look at the Pinzgaur Noriker breed
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post #106 of 134 Old 02-04-2013, 12:01 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jaydee View Post
Its impossible to offer suggestions for a stallion without knowing what a person is aiming to breed. There has to be more information to give an answer.
You then stated you were wanting to breed a Sugarbush Draft. Maybe 'mutt' was a harsh word to use but it is what it implies - a mixed breed horse of no definite or predictable type as the progeny can go in so many directions. You may get a really nice horse but chances are you might not.
I think you will find that all of the replies you disliked are made by people who are concerned about the high numbers of horses being bred with no market for them - other than the slaughter trade which is a lot bigger than you want to believe it is.
I repeat my last post - if you want to produce a spotted draft horse then take a look at the Pinzgaur Noriker breed
I only asked if anyone knew of any dilute drafts in the country, I didn't expect anyone to match my filly with a stallion for me, I just wanted to know if anyone knew where to look. Nothing more.

It is not necessarily spotted drafts I am breeding. Some will maybe be spotty, others won't. I said I was in a breeding program to re establish the Sugarbush Draft not that I was just going to breed one. I explained this several times also.

To be honest I still do not see how breeding animals for myself is going to have any effect on the animals bred and sold for slaughter.

Also, being concerned about the number of horses going to slaughter is no excuse for being rude.

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post #107 of 134 Old 02-04-2013, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Freyannia View Post
I see I am going to continue to be referred to as "she" and "this person" then. If you read back I did not reject your idea of a Suffolk stallion, I just said I hadn't seen any yet that would make a good match.

I have also already looked into Norikers and they do not have the height I need. Again remember I am looking to imitate the Sugarbush and then introduce the original blood. So at first yes my horses will be cross breeds which I have already explained. I seem to be going over the same points again and again here.
I apologise I missed this post.
Its pretty standard for people on the forum to use the term - OP or she/him/they - I havent known anyone to be offended by it before
The Suffolk Punch is a breed that has remained true for centuries - one looks much the same as another.
It took the Sugarbush people 50 years to get to where they are now and they are still struggling - evident when you see that they are opening up their register to pretty much anything now.
If you started with a Noriker mare on a percheron or a Suffolk Punch you would get more height and they are similar in appearance so no major loss of type - the top height for a Noriker is 16hh which is probably why they have increased in popularity where the much larger draft breeds are declining
The advice you are disliking so much is being given to help you to NOT fail
Maybe you could post a pic of your mare?
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post #108 of 134 Old 02-04-2013, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jaydee View Post
If the OP wants to look closer to home for a spotted draft horse - if thats what she likes - then she should look at the Pinzgaur Noriker, its an historic european breed, its been 'pure' since 1903 and it currently has the largest numbers of draft horses on its registry in Europe

If you look at these horses I would say they are exactly what the Sugarbush breeders were trying to achieve
How about a nice Knabstrupper? hardy,used tobe driven, and great natures,but not really draft horse
Knabstrupper Society GB Great Britain UK Knabstruppers for Sale, Knabstrupper News, UK Stallions at Stud KNN Daughter Organisation Mother Stud Book
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post #109 of 134 Old 02-04-2013, 12:53 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jaydee View Post
I apologise I missed this post.
Its pretty standard for people on the forum to use the term - OP or she/him/they - I havent known anyone to be offended by it before
The Suffolk Punch is a breed that has remained true for centuries - one looks much the same as another.
It took the Sugarbush people 50 years to get to where they are now and they are still struggling - evident when you see that they are opening up their register to pretty much anything now.
If you started with a Noriker mare on a percheron or a Suffolk Punch you would get more height and they are similar in appearance so no major loss of type - the top height for a Noriker is 16hh which is probably why they have increased in popularity where the much larger draft breeds are declining
The advice you are disliking so much is being given to help you to NOT fail
Maybe you could post a pic of your mare?
The general tone of the posts made the she offensive, not using the term itself. Although the OP is a much less offensive term. As I said I have only been here 3 days so far this is the only thread I have read using she or this person instead of OP.

I just want to point out that they have not opened the registry to pretty much anything. Each horse has been assessed and must be within 70% of the ideal, not desirable... Ideal. Over 200 people put there horses forwards to be assessed and they only approved about 40 of those before closing the registry again.

I appreciate that some people have given me advice which will be taken under consideration but others haven't.

There is a picture of my mare and one of my filly under my horses. Until my computer is fixed that's the only ones I have available ATM... Will have a look and see if I can find some others.

I may have one of my mare & filly when my filly was very young but that's not helpful. Although I did mention before this is for a breeding over a year and a half at the soonest away. I'm not a business so I like to plan well ahead and have several options. If I can't find a decent match for her she won't be covered. I would rather have an empty mare than one covered by a substandard stallion.
My mare is an Ardennes from the old lines and my filly is a maxi cob (warmblood over her dam). My mare has consistently bred maxi cobs no matter what stallion has been used on her although Prima is the only foal I have from her as I bought her after her previous foal had been weaned.

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post #110 of 134 Old 02-04-2013, 12:56 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Clava View Post
How about a nice Knabstrupper? hardy,used tobe driven, and great natures,but not really draft horse
Knabstrupper Society GB Great Britain UK Knabstruppers for Sale, Knabstrupper News, UK Stallions at Stud KNN Daughter Organisation Mother Stud Book
Funnily enough I was considering Fintel. Not because of his colour but because I have worked with and now people with some of his foals. I like what he produces. Plus he is similar in build to my fillies sire so I am pretty much guaranteed a maxi cob type from him.

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