Dilute Draft Stallions in UK? - Page 3 - The Horse Forum
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post #21 of 134 Old 02-01-2013, 05:35 PM Thread Starter
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Sugarbush drafts are
Sugarbush x sugarbush
Or
Sugarbush x stonewall sport horse
Or
Stonewall sport horse x percheron or other approved draft stallion (must be individually approved).

That is only temporary as there are nly 12 purebred horses left we are trying to build the breed back up. By G5-8 (depending on wether we have reached our ideal type once again and have enough horses registered) the Studbook will again close and there will be no cross breeding.

Gypsy cobs are not an approvable breed as they are very different dimensionally to the Sugarbush and are much to small.

The Sugarbush Draft comes in all Lp patterns including solid. They do not need to be spotty, it isn't about the coat colour it is the horse underneath. The riding draft. I just happened to like dilutes and if I had a chance of an approvable dilute stallion as long as it made a good match to my girl I would take it.

No horses will be culled. That is a very strange thing to say. If they don't make the grade then the colts will be gelded and the fillies won't be registered but they won't be culled.
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post #22 of 134 Old 02-01-2013, 05:40 PM
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The Suffolk Punch is a very ancient breed and one that's on the endangered list. The Cleveland Bay is in the same position - why not put your efforts into preserving an existing historic british horse rather than trying to preserve a very modern US one?
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post #23 of 134 Old 02-01-2013, 05:41 PM Thread Starter
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True Jaydee, however the purebred SDHR horses in the states DO breed true. It is a goal for me to work towards. As I said before isn't all about the colour it is about the conformation, temperament, health, ability etc etc etc lots of factors at play
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post #24 of 134 Old 02-01-2013, 05:46 PM
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Which ones breed true? Accoridng to the Sugarbrush people that post on here they don't even have that many... and they are approving dang near anything as "foundation" stock as long as it meets their "70%" requirement. Their horses are not breeding true and are a mishmash of conformation and types.

Sugarbrush horses, IMPO, are grade horses people are trying to put a fancy tag on and breed for color...
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post #25 of 134 Old 02-01-2013, 05:47 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydee View Post
The Suffolk Punch is a very ancient breed and one that's on the endangered list. The Cleveland Bay is in the same position - why not put your efforts into preserving an existing historic british horse rather than trying to preserve a very modern US one?
Partially because the Sugarbush is my perfect breed for many reasons. Partly because I originally wanted to focus on Clydesdales and Suffolks but as they have been soo in bred after the war there are a LOT of health issues there that you would need to cross breed to attempt to improve and this wouldn't be allowed. The Sugarbush has been very very very carefully bred and the SDHR horses at this point in Time have shown no abnormalities at all like the Clydesdale etc have.

The Cleveland bay is reaching safe parameters now and they used the same method to save their breed as we are using for the Sugarbush Draft.
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post #26 of 134 Old 02-01-2013, 05:50 PM
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'Culled', as in being removed from the breeding stock of a given breed. NOT killed, as you seem to think I meant.

Incidentally, while most Gypsy Cobs/Horses, are under 15hh, there are plenty of taller ones around.

If I were trying to recreate the Sugarbushes, I'd probably be trying to stick to breeding to quality Percherons, since to me anyway, that is what they most resemble. If trying to add Appy colouring, then I'd take the best Percherons and breed them to the best Appaloosas or drafts with Appy colouring, I could find.

Lizzie
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post #27 of 134 Old 02-01-2013, 05:52 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NdAppy View Post
Which ones breed true? Accoridng to the Sugarbrush people that post on here they don't even have that many... and they are approving dang near anything as "foundation" stock as long as it meets their "70%" requirement. Their horses are not breeding true and are a mishmash of conformation and types.

Sugarbrush horses, IMPO, are grade horses people are trying to put a fancy tag on and breed for color...
12 pure bred horses left yes. And yes they have approved 40 or so foundation horses that met at the very least 70% of the ideal. They will not be approving any more foundation horses, they have hundreds of people put forward horses for foundation approval and more than 2/3 were turned away as they were not within the required parameters for the breed. This is hardly "dang near anything". This is exactly the same method that the Cleveland bays used to save their breed.

Again colour is a bonus but it isn't about colour, it's the horse underneath.
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post #28 of 134 Old 02-01-2013, 05:57 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FeatheredFeet View Post
'Culled', as in being removed from the breeding stock of a given breed. NOT killed, as you seem to think I meant.

Incidentally, while most Gypsy Cobs/Horses, are under 15hh, there are plenty of taller ones around.

If I were trying to recreate the Sugarbushes, I'd probably be trying to stick to breeding to quality Percherons, since to me anyway, that is what they most resemble. If trying to add Appy colouring, then I'd take the best Percherons and breed them to the best Appaloosas or drafts with Appy colouring, I could find.

Lizzie
I took culled literally, glad you didn't mean it that way. There are some people in this world that would actually do that. If they do it with dogs they will do it with any other species

I have been unable to find any large gypsies or drums that arnt pinto patterned as that is the only colour stipulation... No pinto pattern genes.
There are also some Percheron's I am thinking about, like I said I have the time to be very picky. Colour really doesn't come into it. Although would be a bonus. I will follow the rules and guidelines set by the registry as I want to get it right :)
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post #29 of 134 Old 02-01-2013, 06:13 PM
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No pinto patterns hunh? Well make sure your horses don't have splash, sabino, dominant white, and the like, as well as those ARE pinto patterns. Oh wait! That wipes out all the horses you could breed!
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post #30 of 134 Old 02-01-2013, 06:23 PM
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You have to understand, that there are hundreds of thousands of horses the world over, who are sold for someone's dinner table, every year. This includes tons from the UK, Canada and the US. Doesn't matter if they are purebred or grades. The majority were not well thought out breedings, which would have been desired throughout their lives and always found willing homes. That even in our current difficult equine economy. Top quality, well bred horses are much more likely to find homes, than mixed breeds or poorly bred purebreds, bred and sold by irresponsible breeders.

This is where (I think) it will become difficult to really create a Sugarbush breed, when so many breeds are allowed in and of all types and if truly, many will be culled. I imagine it becomes even more difficult, when people in different parts of the world are all trying to recreate it. At some point, shipped semen will have to be available so the different lines can join up and be bred.

Regarding larger Gypsies in the UK. Well remember that in their background, many Shires were used in the mid 1800's when the breed really became first known and was used to pull the incredibly heavy living caravans. I know that many UK small breeders are trying to breed for smaller horses these days, but there are plenty of larger ones of the old type around if you look. Many of our most famous lines, actually go back to a Shire which came from Scotland. Not all are tobianos.

Lizzie
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