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Dilute Draft Stallions in UK?

16K views 133 replies 18 participants last post by  jaydee 
#1 ·
Looking for a nice dilute (pref double dilute) heavy stallion over 15.2... Anyone have any ideas? To put over my choco pally filly next year (her first covering). Must be heavyweight/draft. X
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#3 ·
I am in a breeding program for the Sugarbush drafts. Because my filly has an F-SDHR dam and WB sire I need to have her covered by a draft to produce a sugarbush foal, a pretty colour would be a huge bonus :)
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#5 ·
I must say, that's rather rude. If you look up any dictionary for "purebred" you will get this;

— adj
denoting a pure strain obtained through many generations
of controlled breeding for desirable traits

So in effect breeding selected horses together to produce the same characteristics every time...i.e breeding true.

It takes 5 generations of bred true horses to create a breed. In the States these horses are already purebred.

The Sugarbush Draft IS a fully fledged breed... It may be a new breed but it is IN FACT a breed.

Granted in the UK we only have 2 eligible breeding mares (my filly and her dam) and we will need to go through selective breeding to create the bred true youngstock exact as in the States. We are being very very selective about the matches we make and if the youngstock make the grade or not. This will be helped later on when I can import a stallion from the original bloodlines but I will not do that until I have quality stock of the exact type to pair him with.

I suggest that if you have something rude to say, you just don't say it. I don't mind constructive criticism, but being mean is just that.
 
#6 ·
I think that Faye is being more blunt than rude
I cant see that these horses will ever be a recognised breed in the UK as all you are going to get is a cob or if you use some quality blood and use a bigger stallion then maybe a middle weight hunter/sport horse and there is no shortage of those in the UK - some amazing ones and some below average.
The problem with using a first cross draft stallion is that the offspring can go either way so maybe an Irish Draft would be a better choice
 
#7 ·
These horses will be more than just cobs or mid hunters. At first we have that possibility but I am we'll aware it may take me 10 years or more to get the breed correct to type and breeding true in the UK. My filly is 50% draft and could be considered a Maxi Cob or mid hunter as she is. I am looking at the heavy hunter category. I definitely see this breed being recognised in the UK. they recognise the Appaloosa's don't they? The Appaloosa breed is only 2-4 years older than the Sugarbush. I don't see recognition as a problem once the breed is properly established. I do see it taking many years though :D but I'm fine with that.

I am looking at an Irish Draught and a Clydesdale stallion for this filly. Both of which are being assessed ATM to determine if they would be an approved match to produce a G1 sugarbush foal. Them the foal will be assessed to see if it makes the grade :)
 
#8 ·
These horses will be more than just cobs or mid hunters. At first we have that possibility but I am we'll aware it may take me 10 years or more to get the breed correct to type and breeding true in the UK. My filly is 50% draft and could be considered a Maxi Cob or mid hunter as she is. I am looking at the heavy hunter category. I definitely see this breed being recognised in the UK. they recognise the Appaloosa's don't they? The Appaloosa breed is only 2-4 years older than the Sugarbush. I don't see recognition as a problem once the breed is properly established. I do see it taking many years though :D but I'm fine with that.

I am looking at an Irish Draught and a Clydesdale stallion for this filly. Both of which are being assessed ATM to determine if they would be an approved match to produce a G1 sugarbush foal. Them the foal will be assessed to see if it makes the grade :)
The US appaloosa society was founded in 1938 and the UK established its own society in 1976 - but this wasnt the start of the 'breed' - they have been around for centuries. The Sugarbush didnt emerge in the US until the 1950s
If you use a Clydesdale depending on what draft cross your mare is you are likely to end of with something that looks like a draft horse - that is not a valid description of a quality heavyweight hunter. There are pure ID's competing at top level in heavyweight hunter classes so you'd do best to consider that breed or maybe a suffolk punch which is more compact and has better riding horse type conformation
I've had 2 horses that were TB stallion x Cleveland Bay (both mares) and one looked like a show riding horse (15.2) and the other almost like a pure Cleveland bay (16.3)
I dont know if you ever go to any auctions but if you did you would see many horses much like what you want to produce - they are commonplace in the UK and have been for years
 
#9 ·
The American Cream Draft was the first breed that popped to mind for me. Looks like they're actually champagne, not cream, though; not sure if that makes a difference to you :) You're probably not likely to find one in your area, but could probably do shipped semen.
 
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#10 ·
My appologies, I was thinking of the AQHA, dunno why I said Appaloosa... Baby brain! Lol blame it on the pregnancy. Thanks for correcting me :D the quarter horse registry was set up at the same time as the Sugarbush registry... Relatively speaking. Either way I am devoted to the breed :)

I had thought about a Suffolk Punch now that you mention it! Haven't found one I liked as much as the ID and Clydie though. I have LOTS of time to decide though.
 
#12 ·
" The American Quarter Horse became an official breed in 1940 when the American Quarter Horse Association (AQHA) was founded. It is the first breed of horse native to the United States, having formed over generations dating back to the 1600s in Colonial America. At first bred primarily for racing over short distances, the American Quarter Horse found a new role in the 1800s when it rose to prominence as the horse of choice for the burgeoning cattle industry in America."

AQHA was founded in the 40's but they were bred for a LONG time before that. I guess doteing over registration papers was probably less important then founding and settling the country ;). The thing that I find admirable about AQHA is that they were bred with purpose in mind.. an fast, level headed, intelligent, strong and agile horse. I feel like they evolved into a breed of their own instead of breeding the heck out of some cute horses.
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#13 ·
:D My baby brain is in full force tonight! Lol

I want to do this with the UK Sugarbush's. My goal is an all round horse, intelligent, strong and agile, gentle and calm but with get up and go if it is asked for. Personally I want to do some showing along the way but my plan is to build up a trekking centre that specialises in heavier horses and the RDA. These horses are perfect for that purpose. Very intelligent but calm :)

They also cater to the budget owner too, hardy, good feet, good doers etc etc... Lots of careful and selective breeding but my end goal is SOOO worth it!
 
#14 ·
There are hundreds of heavy cobs on the market at the moment, the vast majority end up in the meat wagon.

The RDA dont tend to want many horses over 15hh as it makes getting people on and off them very difficult (I've worked with both RDA and PARA dressage)

They are Mutts, not some pedigree horses. you are breeding UK stock to WB's or Drafts just because they fit a description doess not make them a purebred. I had a purebred connemara who was often mistaken for a newforest pony, does not make him a newforest.

Finaly to officialy become a breed the registry that holds the certifcation rights must be registered with DAD-IS (The UN registry).

sugarbush is not a recognised breed.
 
#16 ·
Ok, firstly there is no regulation I can find that says breeds MUST be registered with the DAD -IS. Infact there are breeds which arnt listed like the Brabent. Each country has the choice to use the system, they are not required to.

Secondly, as there are only 12 of the original horses left the breed is considered an extinct breed until 10 separate bloodlines are created from the foundation registered horses and the original horses. Foundation horses cant be counted so it needs to be 5th generation youngstock thatbare counted for seperate bloodlines. Once we get to that point the breed will move from "extinct" status to "endangered" status. As a breed classified as extinct it wouldn't show on the DAD-IS system.

Thirdly "mutt" refers to a mongrel dog. My horses are neither dogs nor mongrels as they are selectively bred and have recorded pedigrees. As I am at the beginning stages of re establishment sure, my horses will start off as cross breeds but they won't stay that way. How do you think we have so many different breeds in the first place?

Fourthly I asked if anyone knew of a dilute draft stallion. I did not ask if people would like to tell me that the breed I and several others are trying to re establish is a real breed. We know it is a breed and we are dedicated to bringing it back.
 
#15 ·
There are many all round horses, which is why I don't see much purpose in breeding them. Are AQHA types pretty versatile? Yes, you can find them in any discipline. Where they really excel is in western events/riding because they were BRED TO BE sturdy, cow smart, high endurance work horses. Not a bunch of random things splashed together and called an "all rounder".
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#17 ·
Maybe 'mutt' is the wrong word to use since most UK show horses/ponies are types and not breeds - excepting the purebred natives etc of course and a lot of them had arabian blood bred into them over the years.
Faye is right though as anything you breed will not be seen in the UK as any different to the thousands of cobs, heavy riding horses already out there and sadly a lot are being sold for meat - loads of gypsy cob types being abandoned.
The horse in my avatar is a cross between what was desbribed to me as a small clydesdale and an arab - larger pic below. She is almost like a mini clyde so I'm thinking if you put a draft cross to a clyde you are more likely to get something that looks like clyde and not what you are hoping for.
 

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#18 ·
I am aware that up until the breed is more established people are not likely to recognise it. This doesn't bother me. If the thought that no one would recognise them stopped breeders from breeding their chosen breed regardless of what country they were in then we wouldn't have the varied and diverse breeds that we do have all over the world.

Eventually this breed will get the recognition that I think they deserve. I know that for every person who sees a Sugarbush draft and wants one there is at least one that thinks its a "Mutt", simply because they don't know about the breed, or they don't like draft types or some other reason. But that's their problem... Not mine :D

The stallion below is the only remaining pure bred stallion from the original lines. Once my horses are breeding true we will be importing a stallion from his bloodlines to further improve the breed in the UK :)
 

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#19 ·
I guess I really don't understand the Subarbush thing, whether in the US or UK. However, no f1 breeding, will make a purebred anything. It does indeed, take tons of horses, generations of breeding and more time and money than most humans have, to make a breed which is breeding true. Along the way, hundreds will probably have to be culled.

You can find many Gypsy Cobs in the UK, which are of dilute colouring. Those from reliable breeders, will have a known background and will have been DNA'd. I know of a few. However, I don't see how breeding to one, will make a foundation or otherwise, Sugarbush breed. I guess in my mind, whether correctly or not, I had the idea that Sugarbush horses were Appy coloured Percherons. Come to think of it, there are some very good Appy coloured Gypsies in the UK.

Lizzie
 
#20 ·
I'd say if you crossed an appy to a percheron, suffolk punch, Boulonnaise or similar you would get a horse that looked just like this - but if you bred two and then crossbred them with each other you could get something much lighter or much heavier - eg more like the foundation draft breed
It would be several lifetimes to get it right.
 
#21 ·
Sugarbush drafts are
sugarbush x sugarbush
or
sugarbush x stonewall sport horse
or
stonewall sport horse x percheron or other approved draft stallion (must be individually approved).

That is only temporary as there are nly 12 purebred horses left we are trying to build the breed back up. By G5-8 (depending on wether we have reached our ideal type once again and have enough horses registered) the Studbook will again close and there will be no cross breeding.

Gypsy cobs are not an approvable breed as they are very different dimensionally to the Sugarbush and are much to small.

The Sugarbush Draft comes in all Lp patterns including solid. They do not need to be spotty, it isn't about the coat colour it is the horse underneath. The riding draft. I just happened to like dilutes and if I had a chance of an approvable dilute stallion as long as it made a good match to my girl I would take it.

No horses will be culled. That is a very strange thing to say. If they don't make the grade then the colts will be gelded and the fillies won't be registered but they won't be culled.
 
#25 ·
Partially because the Sugarbush is my perfect breed for many reasons. Partly because I originally wanted to focus on Clydesdales and Suffolks but as they have been soo in bred after the war there are a LOT of health issues there that you would need to cross breed to attempt to improve and this wouldn't be allowed. The Sugarbush has been very very very carefully bred and the SDHR horses at this point in Time have shown no abnormalities at all like the Clydesdale etc have.

The Cleveland bay is reaching safe parameters now and they used the same method to save their breed as we are using for the Sugarbush Draft.
 
#23 ·
True Jaydee, however the purebred SDHR horses in the states DO breed true. It is a goal for me to work towards. As I said before isn't all about the colour it is about the conformation, temperament, health, ability etc etc etc lots of factors at play :)
 
#24 ·
Which ones breed true? Accoridng to the Sugarbrush people that post on here they don't even have that many... and they are approving dang near anything as "foundation" stock as long as it meets their "70%" requirement. Their horses are not breeding true and are a mishmash of conformation and types.

Sugarbrush horses, IMPO, are grade horses people are trying to put a fancy tag on and breed for color...
 
#27 ·
12 pure bred horses left yes. And yes they have approved 40 or so foundation horses that met at the very least 70% of the ideal. They will not be approving any more foundation horses, they have hundreds of people put forward horses for foundation approval and more than 2/3 were turned away as they were not within the required parameters for the breed. This is hardly "dang near anything". This is exactly the same method that the Cleveland bays used to save their breed.

Again colour is a bonus but it isn't about colour, it's the horse underneath.
 
#26 ·
'Culled', as in being removed from the breeding stock of a given breed. NOT killed, as you seem to think I meant.

Incidentally, while most Gypsy Cobs/Horses, are under 15hh, there are plenty of taller ones around.

If I were trying to recreate the Sugarbushes, I'd probably be trying to stick to breeding to quality Percherons, since to me anyway, that is what they most resemble. If trying to add Appy colouring, then I'd take the best Percherons and breed them to the best Appaloosas or drafts with Appy colouring, I could find.

Lizzie
 
#28 ·
I took culled literally, glad you didn't mean it that way. There are some people in this world that would actually do that. If they do it with dogs they will do it with any other species :shock:

I have been unable to find any large gypsies or drums that arnt pinto patterned as that is the only colour stipulation... No pinto pattern genes.
There are also some Percheron's I am thinking about, like I said I have the time to be very picky. Colour really doesn't come into it. Although would be a bonus. I will follow the rules and guidelines set by the registry as I want to get it right :)
 
#30 ·
You have to understand, that there are hundreds of thousands of horses the world over, who are sold for someone's dinner table, every year. This includes tons from the UK, Canada and the US. Doesn't matter if they are purebred or grades. The majority were not well thought out breedings, which would have been desired throughout their lives and always found willing homes. That even in our current difficult equine economy. Top quality, well bred horses are much more likely to find homes, than mixed breeds or poorly bred purebreds, bred and sold by irresponsible breeders.

This is where (I think) it will become difficult to really create a Sugarbush breed, when so many breeds are allowed in and of all types and if truly, many will be culled. I imagine it becomes even more difficult, when people in different parts of the world are all trying to recreate it. At some point, shipped semen will have to be available so the different lines can join up and be bred.

Regarding larger Gypsies in the UK. Well remember that in their background, many Shires were used in the mid 1800's when the breed really became first known and was used to pull the incredibly heavy living caravans. I know that many UK small breeders are trying to breed for smaller horses these days, but there are plenty of larger ones of the old type around if you look. Many of our most famous lines, actually go back to a Shire which came from Scotland. Not all are tobianos.

Lizzie
 
#33 ·
I will be working with shipped semen from the American stallions once I have an adequate number of mares and once I then get down some generations I will be importing a stallion from the original lines.

It is a sad sad fact that a lot of horses are in effect culled although if you register on their passport that they are not for human consumption and also register it with the microchip company... I forget the name (baby brain again) then when the horses are scanned their number shows not for human consumption. This won't stop it happening to all horses but would help.
 
#31 ·
Em... No it doesn't. To be honest I think (I will actually have to double check) but I think it is the pinto patterns overo, tobino and dominant white that arnt allowed. Will check about splash and Sabino although it doesn't mean I have no horses to breed to. Neither of my horses have any pinto patterns. Percheron's, Suffolks, Norikers, Belgians, Ardennes, all are free of all pinto patterns. There are more but I can't be bothered needlessly bickering about it.

Again I didn't ask for my breed to be slated, I asked if anyone knew any draft dilute stallions out of curiosity. If people have a valid question that's fine but if you just want to pick holes in my breed you obviously have nothing better to do with your time. I don't have time for bickering and sarcasm. Valid points and comments I welcome, sarcasm I don't.
 
#34 ·
I answered this before but basically what I said was I started out with Clydesdales and thinking about Suffolks but due to the mass inbreeding after the was they have a LOT of genetic defects which could only be improved upon through crosses, which wouldn't be allowed. I own a very well bred Clydesdale from one of the most influential sires and he had cancer as a 3 year old and now at 9 is fully retired due to arthritis. Clydesdales don't fully mature until 9... I know several people with 1/2 siblings of his that are all retired/semi retired due to arthritis. Poor Charlie was the only one to snap up cancer but it shows that the defect is there.

Also logistically it is easier and much more affordable to travel and keep still bulky but slightly more compact horses.

The Sugarbush's are using the same re estBlishment method that the Cleveland bays used :)
 
#35 ·
I didn't know or hadn't heard, that Clydes in the UK, had so many problems. Sorry to hear this and sorry about your boy. What about Shires? At one time of course, they were all one breed. Are they in the same trouble? There again, maybe you don't want feathering, in which case, Percherons would be the obvious choice I suppose.

But if feather isn't an issue and if you personally want something more compact, then why not get a Gypsy? And no, I'm not trying to only tout Gypsies. Just that they are more compact and certainly come in all sizes. Why take most of your life, trying to create something, of which there are already many around? I don't know the Standard for the breed, if there is one, so I suppose I can't or shouldn't, really comment.

Lizzie
 
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