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Double Registered??

This is a discussion on Double Registered?? within the Horse Colors and Genetics forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category
  • Sonny dee bar genetic testing

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    07-20-2012, 03:06 PM
  #11
Yearling
I wouldn't even worry about it much unless you had this top dollar show horse that you were just aching to show in both registries. Even that is silly to me. I think the double registration horses are done with the idea that it makes them easier to promote or makes a stud more desireable. I personally think you should have the whole package.

Isn't CCH's Navajo double registered APHA and AQHA? He is a good example of the whole package.
     
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    07-20-2012, 06:55 PM
  #12
Green Broke
Actually, going back through the pedigree, the only Paint comes from White Cloud, 5 generations back. That means the OP's horse is 96.875% quarter horse.

If AQHA wants to keep tobianos out of their registry, that's one thing. There is a genetic test for tobiano, but I bet even a negative test still wouldn't allow that horse to be registered AQHA even though that's what she is for all intents and purposes.
     
    07-20-2012, 08:56 PM
  #13
Trained
What? No. Just no. I don't know how you were reading the pedigree, but even if we assume the op's horse's sire was solid, the sire's sire WAS/IS a tobi... so no, the only paint is not "five generations back."
     
    07-21-2012, 12:18 AM
  #14
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirteenAcres    
I wouldn't even worry about it much unless you had this top dollar show horse that you were just aching to show in both registries. Even that is silly to me. I think the double registration horses are done with the idea that it makes them easier to promote or makes a stud more desireable. I personally think you should have the whole package.

Isn't CCH's Navajo double registered APHA and AQHA? He is a good example of the whole package.
Eh, two of the three mares being Pinto registered I won't be showing, nor are they for sale.
The other I would LOVE to show on the pinto circuit. I think she'd kick a$$.

It's all preference. Canada even has a Canadian Livestock (something or other) you can register your horse with. It's not a registry, just more of tracking of heritage, if he gets stolen, etc. It's legal, but not per breed. There's no DNA testing or anything confirmed, just a piece of paper with a picture and description of your horse.
If you have a grade, this would be neat - just as proof of ownership if nothing else.
     
    07-21-2012, 01:15 AM
  #15
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by verona1016    
Actually, going back through the pedigree, the only Paint comes from White Cloud, 5 generations back. That means the OP's horse is 96.875% quarter horse.

If AQHA wants to keep tobianos out of their registry, that's one thing. There is a genetic test for tobiano, but I bet even a negative test still wouldn't allow that horse to be registered AQHA even though that's what she is for all intents and purposes.
American Quarter Horses and American Paint Horses are two different breeds. The QH was created through breeding stockier TBs down into what we now know as a Quarter Horse. Paint Horses are descended from Spanish herds brought over by explorers. Yes, the two breeds have merged quite a bit, but tobiano will NEVER exist in Quarter Horses. It is not part of the breed. Just as cream will never exist in Arabs and dun will never exist in Thoroughbreds. They are separate breeds and will be that way. The only reason they are merged is because the AQHA valued solid colored horses, so when random, loud colored babies were being produced, they were entirely frowned upon and choose to basically shun them.

And based on your logic, the AQHA registered horses that are actually nearly completely Thoroughbred should be registered with the Jockey Club. Horses like Indian Artifacts that are only 1/4th Quarter Horse.

Also, Verona, if what you were saying was true, I would also own an APHA/AQHA horse. I have a solid Paint bred that is 89% Foundation Quarter Horse. There is ONE line of tobiano on my mare's pedigree that would keep her from being AQHA also. Her APHA dam is linebred Skipper W and Sonny Dee Bar, both of which are known to carry white patterns and produce loud foals.

And, for the record, Redfox, your mare is about 78% Foundation Quarter Horse.
     
    07-21-2012, 12:25 PM
  #16
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by NdAppy    
What? No. Just no. I don't know how you were reading the pedigree, but even if we assume the op's horse's sire was solid, the sire's sire WAS/IS a tobi... so no, the only paint is not "five generations back."
I guess I worded that wrong. White Cloud is the only 100% Paint horse in the pedigree. For the 5 generations since then, the "Paint" has been bred to a QH every time. Yes, the pinto coloring was passed on, but as the OP's horse is SPB we don't know if she actually carries the tobiano gene or not, but there is a test for it.
     
    07-21-2012, 12:55 PM
  #17
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poseidon    
American Quarter Horses and American Paint Horses are two different breeds. The QH was created through breeding stockier TBs down into what we now know as a Quarter Horse. Paint Horses are descended from Spanish herds brought over by explorers.
Not entirely true. In fact, the percentage that a QH is "foundation bred" depends entirely on how much TB blood they don't have (at least in the past 10 generations, which for most horses predates the AQHA).

From the NFQHA:
"The blood in the founding stock was a mixture of Barb, Thoroughbred, Mustang, Arab, draft horse, and a myriad of other blood....A horse must possess 80% Quarter Horse blood. It does not matter what generation the TB ancestors appear in as long as the combined total of TB blood does not exceed the allowable amount. In order to figure the TB percentage, the amount contributed by the first TB ancestor encountered on each line is added together to come up with the total Thoroughbred blood. "


I went through the QH side of my horse's pedigree 10 generations back (well beyond when AQHA was founded in 1940), and came up with a BUNCH of unregistered (i.e. Grade) horses and a smattering of other random breeds (mustang, appy, morgan, etc.) in addition to ~12% TB.

And I hate to cite Wikipedia, but APHA doesn't seem to share much about its original registered horses.
"It was founded in 1965 with the merging of two different color breed registries that had been formed to register pinto-colored horses of Quarter Horse bloodlines. One of these organizations was the American Paint Quarter Horse Association (or APQHA) and the other was the American Paint Stock Horse Association (or APSHA)."
     
    07-21-2012, 12:59 PM
  #18
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poseidon    
And based on your logic, the AQHA registered horses that are actually nearly completely Thoroughbred should be registered with the Jockey Club. Horses like Indian Artifacts that are only 1/4th Quarter Horse.
No, 25% QH is still pretty high. The TB breed has been established for a much longer time than the quarter horse breed, can be traced back to purebred lines for a lot longer, and doesn't have a "sister" registry so closely tied to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poseidon    
Also, Verona, if what you were saying was true, I would also own an APHA/AQHA horse. I have a solid Paint bred that is 89% Foundation Quarter Horse. There is ONE line of tobiano on my mare's pedigree that would keep her from being AQHA also. Her APHA dam is linebred Skipper W and Sonny Dee Bar, both of which are known to carry white patterns and produce loud foals.
Like I said before, there is a genetic test for tobiano, and if AQHA wants to keep it out of their registry, more power to them. But if your horse doesn't carry it and is 89% foundation bred, then they're just fooling themselves saying your horse isn't a QH.
     
    07-21-2012, 02:22 PM
  #19
Trained
I think a lot of folks believe that the registries' main focus was a lofty ideal of maintaining a 'purity' within the breeds, but to be honest the bottom line was creating a money making financial niche for breeders. If you look at the history of the AQHA ( American Quarter Horse Association - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and similarly the APHA, you'll see all the 'politics' involved. In the end, a group of breeders got together, picked a set of horses with traits they liked, and then (over time) 'defined' the breed around those horses.
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    07-21-2012, 03:10 PM
  #20
Trained
You know what, Verona? I'm done arguing with you. You have posted incorrect or just uninformed information all over this subforum and it's gotten old.
Posted via Mobile Device
     

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