The Horse Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

Genetic knowitalls take notice! Lol

5K views 46 replies 13 participants last post by  Poseidon 
#1 ·
Okay, so I am not planning on breeding a horse anytime in the next 10 years.

I am very curios though to this:

Lets say a stallions can only produce dun horses. You breed him to a mare that can only produce lets say black horses.

What will the foal turn out to be, because the sire and the dam can only produce 1 colour of foal... but different colours.

I am just curios, so please share your thoughts.
 
#2 ·
I am by no means an expert, but I would say either grulla (black dun) or bay dun depending on the agouti status of both parents. Homozygous black means they will never produce a red based foal. Bay, brown, black, grulla, etc are all black based either with or without modifiers, and all can be homozygous for black without actually being black.
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#3 ·
Okay, so I am not planning on breeding a horse anytime in the next 10 years.

I am very curios though to this:

Lets say a stallions can only produce dun horses. You breed him to a mare that can only produce lets say black horses.

What will the foal turn out to be, because the sire and the dam can only produce 1 colour of foal... but different colours.

I am just curios, so please share your thoughts.
This is where you are underthinking it. Dun is a modifier, not a colour.

There are only two colours of horse - red (chestnut) and black. Everything else, every other colour in the miriad of coats in the horse world, are modifications of these two bases.

This guy is homozygous for black:



This girl is homozygous for dun:



Now, without being facetious, I can tell you are talking about your filly. That does narrow it down somewhat, because we can see what she carries (mostly). However, without knowing what else the stallion has, and without knowing if your filly is EE or Ee, there is no way to narrow down what colours to expect.
 
#4 ·
Thanks, but I was actually not talking about my filly, I was talking about, any horse because I am curious! Although, if I ever decide to breed, this would be good to know (but I will unlikely breed HER ever)

Okay, so lets say a stallion could only produce chestnut and the mare could only produce black?

Does that make a little more sence? One base colour can only be produced by each of the horses.

What would the foal be?
 
#8 ·
If one parent is EE (homozygous black) and the other parent is ee (homozygous red) They will give one black gene and one red gene. BUT black is dominant and red is recessive meaning that the black COVERS the red. So the horse will be black based always. BUT it also means that the resulting foal could GIVE a red gene and have a red foal.
 
#12 ·
Chilla explained it Very well - I like to look at it like 'switches' turned off and on on a horse. Each horse has a set of all the possible switches (2 possible for each color gene) - some are switched on, some off. Each switch changes the appearance of a horse, sometimes if they have both turned on it'll look different from if they have one turned on. Like the cream dilute - on a red base 1 cream gene makes palomino, 2 cream makes cremello. Get where I'm going with this?

So you're mare who can only make black foals - clearly has BOTH Black switches turned on - if one was off there would be a 50/50 chance of her foal getting her black gene (of course what daddy carries can also influence the %)
What's nice about True black horses is you know they aren't hiding anything - there is no dilute gene that isn't visible on a black horse (except sometimes black with 1 cream can be tough to distinguish)
One a red base horse dilutes like agouti(bay) and silver may not be apparent without DNA tests and may show up in a foal.

Now the daddy of your mix is probably the one throwing you some curve balls.
'dun' is just a dilute gene, it could appear on any color. So if the dun daddy a bay dun? Black dun (Grulla)? chestnut dun? buckskin dun? What base does he have?
For the sake of this post I'm going to "ASSume" he's a bay dun - because that's what most people refer to as just a plain 'dun'.
This would mean he carries at least 1 black gene, at least 1 agouti (bay) dilute gene, and (because you said he's guaranteed to throw dun foals) he must have 2 Dun dilute genes.
So daddy could look something like
Ee (black 1 switch on, 1 switch off)
Aa (bay 1 switch on, 1 switch off)
DD (dun both switches on)
He could have both switches on for black or bay - but we'll pretend like he doesn't because we don't know for sure.
So daddy has a 50/50 chance of carrying on his E (black gene) but lucky mommy has 2 so foal is definitely going to definitely get the E gene from mom - so baby is 50/50 Ee or EE (one on, one off or both on 50/50)
The agouti (bay gene) only effects black based horses - the foal is definitely is black based so he has 50/50 to get 1 agouti from daddy, but no chance of getting any from mom. So he's 50/50 whether he'll be Aa or aa (1 switch on, 1 switch off or both off 50/50). Luckily it only takes 1 A to effect a black based horse. So foal is 50/50 whether or not he gets the bay gene.

While Daddy is sure to pass on one of his Dun genes, mommy has none - again luckily it only takes one to get dilute the color.

So baby would be either Grulla or Bay Dun :)

Sorry if that went crazy - I LOVE genetics!
 
#16 ·
Do you mean Chestnut dun or Bay dun?

If chestnut dun she has ee (both off) Daddy was either Ee or EE (one on, one off or both on) But clearly the E passed on. Baby would have Ee. If the baby did Not get the dun then the mom must have been Dd and the D didn't carry over. So if baby had a baby she has Ee - so depending on the daddy the foal could be red based.
Sounds like you're getting the hang of this.
 
#18 ·
Just tossing this out there, Breezy. When breeding, it's always a crap-shoot as to what you get, even if you know exactly which genes each parent carries because of the different possible ways those genes can combine.
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#20 ·
Just tossing this out there, Breezy. When breeding, it's always a crap-shoot as to what you get, even if you know exactly which genes each parent carries because of the different possible ways those genes can combine.
Posted via Mobile Device
I wouldn't say crap shoot - I think it's all pretty predictable... Except one foal I've got. Mommy was true black (don't know Ee or EE but no other dilutes). Daddy was palomno - foal is buckskin (sure makes sense right?) Daddy was Sabino - no other pattern, mom had no pattern, foal is medicine hat? I think I get lost as soon as I get into patterns I got colors down but patterns x.x
 
#29 ·
So with my mare, she has a blue eye, although she is purebred quarter horse, she still has a pinto gene. I would need to test her to see if she has overo, and if she did, I would need to find a stud that did not have overo genes, in order to avoid a lethal white foal.

I am not planning on breeding Breeze though, I am just curious. If I did so happen to breed Breeze in the future it would most likely be to this stud:

The Jewel Snipper:


I know he is tested and produces a lot of different colours of foals like this mare, who is now a broodmare:


And this filly:


He produces colts and fillies of colours ranging from palomino, chestnut, black, all the way to duns and roans. The only colour he has not produced is a grey and cream colours.
 
#30 · (Edited)
The stallion is ee and could be any form of agouti. Just because he threw those colors on a different mare doesnt mean he can throw them with yours. You said your mare had a red parent correct? That means you will get 50/50 chances of getting a red or black based foal. Your mares Agouti status is aa and the stallion being sorrel doesnt show whether he carries agouti or not but seeing as how he has thrown a black filly he is either Aa or aa meaning 50/50 whether he could throw a bay or a black with your mare. So your only color choices are Black, bay, sorrel with a possibility of an overo gene from your mare. Just because he's thrown all those things doesnt mean they have come from him. The mares also provide genetics on the baby.

There is no way possible for him to throw a roan, or dun from your mare. And i did want to point out that you posted "He produces colts and fillies of colours ranging from palomino, chestnut, black, all the way to duns and roans. The only colour he has not produced is a grey and cream colours." However palomino IS a cream color.
 
#35 ·
Yes, I know he could, and I know he is only half of the equation, One of the broodmares out where he is, is a grey, but he hasn't produced one yet. This is her:


I am almost sure to, that outside breeders have brought in greys too. I am not saying he cannot produce grey, but he just hasn't yet.
 
#33 ·
The stallion is only 50% of the equation. HE isn't soley responsible for all these colors that "he" is producing.

He contributes an e ... which is easily disguised if the mare flips the roan switch, or the black switch, or the dun switch ...

A WHOLE lot will depend on what your mare is carrying that can override the e.
 
#34 ·
Cremello and perlinos as well as smoaky creams are all double cream genes where they inherited a cream gene from both parents. This stallion doesnt have a cream gene to give therefore will never produce any of these colors.

However a single cream gene foal is a palomino, buckskins, and smoaky black. These horses only have to have one parent with a cream gene to inherit. Its still a cream gene but only one instead of two.
 
#36 ·
Grey has a 50/50 chance of passing from a grey horse (unless the horse is homozygous. Then it will always pass)


So basically the grey parent just hasnt thrown a grey gene yet. she has the genetics too but didnt pass them on to the foal.

Grey will always show if it is passed on. ( grgr (not grey) Grgr (heterozygous. Will go grey) GrGr (homozygous. Will go grey faster and will always throw grey foals)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top